Women on the verge of thinking
I created this blog so women, who want to post subjects requiring thought, and descussion, have a place to go where they can be heard. This site is open to all who wish to post about topics realating to politics, philosophy, religion, the church, the synagogue, the state, etc. The only requirement is that people be respectful towards one another. Nothing mean spirited or insensitive please.
Other than that, we can agree to disagree on just about everything. Posts can be limited to current events or other areas of interest.
Thank you for your mind,
Barbara
Other than that, we can agree to disagree on just about everything. Posts can be limited to current events or other areas of interest.
Thank you for your mind,
Barbara
19 Comments:
A question which I would like some discussion about:
During the selection of the new Pope, much discussion was made about his being completely against homosexuality. How do you reconcile this stance with the growing number of cases of sexual abuse in the church, usually ones involving an act between a grown man and a young man? What are your impressions and understandings of this issue?
Forgot to add,
Although the name of this site was inspired by women who want to think, men, of course, are more than welcome to participate.
April 24, 2005
While still experimenting with the blogging experience, my initial experience is that the entire idea is the antithesis of instant gratification...This can be something good, in my humble opinion...
Thank you for inviting me to the blog!
Homosexuals are born that way, and as such, should not be treated any differently than anyone else. The church could be more compassionate in this.
As for gay priests, I know a few myself, but they are not child-molesters.
The church should just allow the civil courts to punish the offenders who molest children, and not try to cover it up.
This new pope will probably not do anything to address these issues, leaving it to the individual diocesan leaders, the bishops, to do it for him.
But I could be wrong!
Thank you both Jalia and Patti for your posts.
Both of you women have brought up excellent points. It seems that while the roots to this idea that homosexuality is biblically wrong, at some level, one cannot simply turn a blind eye to the fact that priests are human beings as well.
Which, I suppose brings up to the issue of whether celibacy is today's society is such a good idea? Does it limit the kinds of people who are attracted to take on religious vows in the church? Why not eliminate this criteria completely? Perhaps after this idea is eliminated, a pathway can be created to open the door for more women to serve alongside priests a broaden their roles in the papacy as well.
What do you think?
Celibacy is a concept that did not originate with the first apostles and Christ himself. This 'rule' came about when church leaders were also rulers. They were passing down church property (and $$) to their heirs. So the church decided - no heirs, no loss of stuff -- I am simplifying this here! That is how the celibacy came to be. This happened in the 1300s.
Right now, this very day, there are 80 married Roman Catholic priests in America. These are men who were married and were ministers in other Christian religions, mostly Lutheran and Episcopal, who converted and were ordained, and of course kept their marital status. I need to talk to my priest buddy to get more info for you on this.
As for women's roles in the Church, well, any visit to any event or Mass at any American Catholic parish will show you that women are indeed active and play important roles in the everyday life of parishes. They are lectors, Eucharistic ministers, parish council members and committee people, CCD teachers and Directors of Religious Education, and yes, even grunt workers scraping gum off of the underside of the pews. The only thing women cannot do is to consecrate the host.
I'm not seeing ordination of women as something that will happen in my own lifetime. But there is no doubt in my mind that just about anything I want to do in my parish, I am allowed to do and welcomed to do.
Nice concept. I'm looking forward to seeing how the discussion moves along.
I hope you won't be offended when I say you might want to use spell check. It will help your blog look really top-notch.
Homsexuality, child sexual abuse and celibacy are three distinct, unrelated issues, as Patti points out.
Jalia says the bible says homosexuality is wrong - but not everyone cares what the bible says. The bible is a set of stories, myths, rules, mores - but not the only one.
Many Christians find no incompatibility between their faith and their being gay or gay-friendly. Likewise, many gay and non-gay people don't care about Christianity.
Patti,
I am completely impressed with your knowlege and thank you for noting that the concept of celibacy is related to property ownership. This is what I have been told that heirs is an issue the church does not want to deal with in any meaningful way.
I-girl...Spelling has not been my forte, and I thank you for pointing this out to me. I was unaware that spell check is an option in these blogs.
It is true that there are 3 seperate issues here: child abuse, celibacy and homosexuality. Not all homosexuals are pedophiles clearly. If priests are molesting young boys, is this something you would classify as child abuse?
If they were parents in a juvenile system, it would clearly be the case. Is it something different in a religious setting?
Curious to see how this topic surfaces.
Yes, Barbara. It is child abuse and it is a crime and it should be treated as such. But the church has closed its ranks and as Cardinal Law(less) in Boston did, they paid off the families and transferred the offenders. Most people find this so highly offensive that when it came out in the news, Law was taken to Rome and put behind a desk.
Thank you for the compliment, Barbara! I like to think I am well trained in apologetics in my faith. I've had very good teachers.
Well trained indeed you are Patti. Actually, I meant this post to be an inquiry, and must thank you and all the other posters for the wonderful information that has been gathered here.
I remember reading about Cardinal Law and the mess in Boston. We had a mess here in Los Angeles as well.
Be that as it may, it seems that a good solution may be to allow more priests to marry and nuns to walk up the ladder. When you weigh and balance the risks and the way in which the church may be seen in the eyes of the public, and some of the abuse that has been committed, this may be a welcome, albeit controversial solution. I know it flies in the face of longstanding dogma, but may be needed to soften the blow and to make the religion more attractive to others.
I read the other day that there are 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide. This is compared to 13 million Jews. Decreasing numbers do make a real difference.
Barbara,
Thanks for your comment on my site. (It's L-girl, btw. Blogger's lower case makes it looks funny!)
There are so many blogs out there, we can only know a tiny fraction. I found yours randomly. When I have down-time at work, I enjoy clicking on random titles from the "recently updated" list on the Blogger dashboard page. Your title caught my eye.
Good luck and enjoy!
L.
Child sexual abuse is abuse is abuse. The religious setting doesn't change that! If anything it makes it worse - a place a child expects comfort and safety, and that trust is turned against him. It's a terrible betrayal. It is abuse, it is a crime, and the fact that the abuser is a priest doesn't change that.
l-girl,
It is not uncommon for those children who are absued, especially in the area of molestation, to be violated by someone in power, albeit a parent, guardian, mentor or religious leader. This is something that makes the issue ever so frightening.
I think people try to group pedophila and homosexuality as the same issue regarding the church but they are very seperate issues.
Most pedophiles are heterosexual men regardless of sex of the victims they prey upon. And of course you're going to find the abuse of those in anytype of power over youths. I think that our society is seeing this even more with teachers and coaches. In fact so much of it is not reported.
I know of a former sorority sister who was a former teacher and is now a registered sex offender and a teacher that I grew up with who is also a registered sex offender. Both cases made little press in the local media, in fact I didn't find out about the first one until I had actually seen the online sex offender database.
Regarding homosexuality, that was at one time considered to be a mental disorder and even listed as one in the original publication of the DSM.
While it may still be viewed by those in society as devient behavior, that wasn't always the case and I believe it will not always be the case as norms and mores change.
Earlier this year my best friend who happens to be a lesbian and I were at her parent's house. She's been out of the closet for several years and her parents have even warmed up to her current girlfriend!
Her Mom who is Catholic was hosting a portrait of the virgin Mary.
I had never heard of this tradition before so I don't know if it's more cultural than anything else.
They prayed the rosary and prayed for certain things according to the kit that was provided.
One of the prayers was against homosexuality. I sat as my heart sunk for my best friend but what could I do? What could she have done? What should her Mom have done?
I think as involved as individuals are or are not within their faith, it's still up to them to make a judgement call regarding what their religion does and does not stand for or against. Be it homosexuality, birth control, abortion, secular movies, music, books, etc...
I've seen those traveling statues and pictures as well. This is part of a strange sub-culture (my own words) of Catholicism. No priest I know would speak against this kind of thing, nor would they endorse it other than to say that any gathering of people to pray together would be a good thing.
What I see as problematic is that some people might think that these practices are actually a part of being a Catholic.
These types of things are referred to as 'sacramentals' -- just little aids, like the rosary, novena, statues and pictures. Nice to have and nice to do, but up to individuals to use or not use.
For Barbara, I wonder about nuns! There are so few communities anymore and in them there are so few nuns.
But I have to say, the nuns around here are amazing. One group in particular, the Ursulines (a teaching order) have bought old homes here and converted them into apartments, for homeless women and their children. The nuns help the women to get into schooling and career training and they know how to work the system to get these women grants, scholarships, food stamps, whatever they need to get back on their feet. I feel personally that their ministry is much more effective and compelling than if they all became priests!
Again I am glad to be a part of this blog! Thank you for inviting me!
I did not know that homosexuals were at once classified as mentally ill, but this does not surprise me. If you look at those categories of individuals killed in Nazi Germany, Jews, the mentally ill, gypseys and homosexuals were all targets of persecution.
"I did not know that homosexuals were at once classified as mentally ill..."
Homosexuality was only removed from the DSM in 1973.
Gay people were said to be mentally ill - and criminals. Until very recently, homosexual sex was a criminal act in the UK and many people served hard time for it.
"Sodomy" is still a crime in certain US states.
And yes, in the vast majority of sexual abuse situations, the child knows the perpetrator, and the perp is in a position of power over the child. There's no such thing as "molestation", that's a misnomer for sexual abuse.
Barbara,
This is my first day going through your blog. I am impressed at the quality of the questions you bring up and the informative replies you receive. I hope you can keep your website going for a long time to come.
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