The Nature of God
According to the Ten Commandments, and principles of the Torah, is God a punishing or a loving God? Are the Ten Commandments a substitution for the other 603 Commandments that exist in the Torah?
If God is loving, how do you explain all the pain and suffering of the world for so many years?
Thank you for your minds.
If God is loving, how do you explain all the pain and suffering of the world for so many years?
Thank you for your minds.
24 Comments:
Whew. You like to ask the tough ones, don't you , Barabara?!
If you go by the Christian Bible and the Jewish writs, there is no contest. I don't think you could make the argument that God is a loving God, per se: Just may be a better description. Some people say that to be loving He must be just. Otherwise evil is equivalent to good.
The 10 is the condensed version. George Carlin gets them down to one in one of his bits. Let complicated works for me
Wow -- amazing post considering what I started studying this morning. I am doing a study on moving from 'believing IN God' to 'believing God.' It talks about the journey to the Promisedland and that while the Israelites believed IN God, they didn't believe God or the promises He made. They talk about that in contrast to Abraham and Moses who not only believed in God, but believed HIM and His promises and were amazingly blessed.
I am a rookie when it comes to understanding all that there is to understand about the nature of God. But one thing I do know is that "God is who He says He is." He is immutable in His nature.
WIt is a fallen world, and because we screw up and bring consequences on ourselves (and inflict wrongs on other people), we will continue to suffer because of our fallen state.
I see the parallel in parents/ children. I can tell my children over and over again that if they do (A), then (B) will happen. But because they have free will, they choose (A), and then (B) happens, and they run back to me to cry and ask why I would let (B) happen if I truly loved them. The only answer I have is that my love was expressed in the admonition to avoid (A), and that they knew full well that engaging in that behavior would result exactly as I said it would.
God gives us commandments not to limit our fun or for the thrill of being the boss...He does it because He loves us desperately, but He ultimately knows more than we could ever comprehend, and He sees (B) lurking in the distance, when all we can see is the immediate fun of (A).
Simplistic, I know. And I'm sure that there will be those who disagree and have umpteen theories on why it doesn't work for them. I am not a scholar or theologian or apologist...just a student who wants to learn and grow in my faith.
Barbara -- Exploring God's nature will probably come up alot on my new blog http://lukewarmlife.blogspot.com
I don't think it is any coincidence that you posed this question while I was setting up the template and writing my first post. This is the very struggle I am embarking on.
Thank you for writing out the tough questions that tug at our souls and our beliefs. I am betting that there are countless others whom you have posed a similarly well-timed question that coincided with a seemingly unrelated quandary...and challenged them to square off and admit to the real underlying question.
What interests me, if you know, is whether the Ten Commandments, are any more important than the other 603 as set forth in the Torah? Does it make God less or more punishing by not following these prohibitions and commandments?
Let me add,
The God I grew up to know was in fact a punishing God. If you did not do such and such, certain consequences would happen. This is why I think many people turn away from God, because the message is one of 'hell and brimstone'. Moreover, many of those who strictly follow the commandments and prohibitions are not tolerant, nor accepting of those who do not. This is why I think so many people turn away, rather than towards God.
I was an atheist for many years, after being brought up in a very religious home. Too much hypocracity and contradiction would result, with many feeling unwelcome. Such a disconnect drives many Jews away from their religion. As I got older, I began to connect more, and started feeling closer to God, observing more of the commandments, doing good deeds, keeping the Sabbath as I interpreted it, seeing God as loving. Recently, I have come across some of these blogs where that hell and brimstone version of religion that I grew up with began to surface again. My knee jerk reaction is to disconnect once again. But now that I am older, I know that not all Jews are mean, and many who claim to be Orthodox are wonderful human beings. I have, stopped getting messages from some of these organizations, on the internet, reminding me of the daily Commandments and Prohibitions, as I am completely turned off again. And I will stop giving my money to one particular organization. But I will not stop supporting the other Jewish charities I feel are worthy of my money and support, and when ever anyone needs me, for good deeds, or emotional support, I am here.
But now, I am questioning whether God is loving or not once again.
this is why i cannot believe in god (the pain and suffering in the world bit)
Urban chick,
I do not think that God causes good or evil. People do. There is an excellent play by Elie Wiesel called The Trial of God. Wiesel was a Holocaust survivor, and he wrote this play, to put God on trial to answer for all of the horrors done to the Jews during the Pogroms during the time of Purim, 1649. Only two Jews survive, and there is an agreement to put God on trial, asking why He would allow such a thing to happen.
The play is a work of genius, and the ending a complete surprise, (but probably for those relgious Jews, one that is expected.) Read this book if you have time. It is extraordinary.
I agree with Urban Chick. You can tell me that "it's not God, it's people" who brought about evil (I've heard it all before), but then we can all justify anything. People believe what they want to believe. If I needed to believe in God, it would be easy to convince myself of his existence. I don't feel the need, though, and I see no proof to change my mind.
Barbara, your spiritual quest seems to have mirrored mine somewhat, and still does. I agree about how the 10 Commandments can't simply be 'it.' If you follow the scriptures, you have to follow all of the scriptures. And that's the only place that Christians deviate from Jews. Christians believe you should try but know you cannot. That's where Jesus comes in and the concept of 'saved by grace.'
However, I think it is very hard to say you're a Christian and that you believe the judaic God is the same as the Christian God when the message in the O.T. is more a message of pacifism and the O.T. God is more warlike.
Well, this could go on forever. I just toss it out as more to ponder...
Oops! I meant the God of the N.T. is more a pacifist than the God of the O.T.
I don't have a very anthopomorphic view of God. I don't think of God/dess as having a personality. To me, it's more like the Mystery. I'm a panentheist (not to be confused with a pantheist).
The God of the Torah and Hebrew Scriptures (and, for that matter, the New Testament) seems fairly harsh to me, if you take it at face value. That's why I always like to interpret it very loosely.
I think the 10 Commandments do seem to have more weight than the other laws in the Torah. Obviously most Christians pay more attention to the 10 Commandments and more or less ignore the other laws in the "Old Testament". But my IMPRESSION is that for Jews, the 10 Commandments still have a more central place. I'm sure you can correct me if I'm wrong!
What if God were neither? What if we, as emanations of God, are our own punitive or loving gods? I think about the stages of moral developmental during childhood and compare it to stages of moral development of mankind. In the earliest stages of mankind's development, there was a need for very black and white thinking - punishment or reward/benevolence because that was the level of understanding we had. This is similar to the moral development of the 3-4 year old - the rules must be absolute and consequences must naturally follow acts.
As children become able to internalize principles, they can made decisions based on those principles - no more black and white thinking. As mankind develops and realizes its own godliness, we can act on spiritual principles. As far as the 10 commandments are concerned, what if we read them as "When you realize your godhood, you will no longer kill, steal, covet..."
Just a thought
Whether the big Ten have more significance or not is an interesting question that the sages of old delved into. A common practice is to stand up in the shul when the 10 commandments are read in the weekly torah portion. There are those that follow the view of Maimonadies that say that no section of the Torah is more important then any other so it would be wrong to stand up for those.
In terms of what is more or less important, Ethics of our Fathers answers that by saying in the second chapter "Be as careful with a minor mitzva as with a strict one, because we do not know the reward for each one." In other words what we consider very important, might be not so important in God's eyes and what we consider minor might be very important in God's eyes.
I can't think of a place in the Torah that mentions God is loving. Though there is a commandment to love God.
The question is what does loving mean? A better question is what is God. What is observance and why observe? Father Avraham, for example figured out God on his own and was rewarded for this by becoming the father of the "priestly nation."
There are religious Jews who are non-accepting of other people. They do this for their own protection. If they let a secular Jew come in and start asking questions to the less educated, they are worried that the kids will turn away. This is the same worry that a secular Jew might have if a Christian missionary was allowed into a Hebrew school to just talk to the kids and see if he was interested in Judaism. There are plenty of outreach organizations that teach what Judaism is all about. They are adept at mainstreaming people to fit into certain communities. After you walk the walk and talk the talk then a formerly closed community will become very open to you.
There is a great fear that if someone walks in and is accepted by the community and then asks kids questions like, "why are you wearing that black coat? Can't you see that there are plenty of modern Jews who learn Torah and do all the mitzvos and dress normally?"
Yes, they teach them the answers to that. When they are ready to walk into the world they know why they are wearing their black coat. But they feel (maybe rightly) that allowing someone who does not walk like a duck or quack like a duck into the pond to play with the ducklings.
About Reward and punishment, hell and brimstone...
It says in Ethics of the Fathers, first chapter, Don't be like servants who only serve their master to receive a reward. Be like a servant who serves his master without the condition of a reward.
It also says there is great reward for doing the mitzvos in other places.
If one accepts that there is a God and he told us how to behave, the obvious reaction is that if we listen to him then good will happen and if we don't listen to him then bad will happen. If this good or bad happened immediately it would completely remove our freedom of choice. Think about it, if everytime you start talking bad about someone and you get thrown on the floor and kicked, it would be impossible for you to talk bad about someone.
What is the world to come and are there hellfires etc.. I don't know. I have heard a number of different explanations, but I can't relate to any of them. That's why I find it best to look at it as, God told me what to do - he created the world, and me and directly manages it. He knows what is best and has knowledge and understanding that we cannot hope to comprehend. After I accept that, it is simple to keep the mitzvos because that is what is the only moral way to live. The inventor of morality told me so.
As to not accepting God on the basis of not understanding how things that happen can happen. For some the Holocaust is proof that there is no God, because how could a God let that happen. For others the Holocaust is proof that there is a God, because such a thing could not happen without direct Godly influence. Why did it happen, that is a different question which we currenly do not understand. But our history and tradition show us that whenever the Jews have not behaved properly, bad things start to happen. I generally use the Purim story as an example of this.
I think that God left to go on vacation about 3,000 years ago.
This would explain all the bad stuff that happens. The boss is on a cosmic beach somewhere, sipping frozen drinks garnished with tiny paper umbrellas. His cell phone is off, and he threw the laptop into a black hole.
You know how it is when the boss is on vacation. No real work gets done. LOTS of rear ends get photocopied, there are rolling chair races, conga lines are formed, and so on - but nobody works. Except for that suck up in accounting that nobody likes.
He is going to be VERY UPSET when he gets back to the office. And just for the record...I NEVER claim to be speaking for God. I do crack jokes, but I figure God has a great sense of humor. Just look at the platypus. No more proof is needed.
I stopped by here for the first time and the pain in your posts i think echoes back to some of my own ealier doubts. God is a god of love. I truely believe that. Just as there are other aspects to God. I believe that also. My father is a loving father, and yet I knew if I did what wrong as a child that there would be consequences, not because he didn't love me but because the world is a world of cause and effect and if we can learn that and temper and be tempered in the causes we choose or the effects that we earn than such is better. Judaism does not say we have to be perfect or its not worth trying. Rather it lifts humanity into a place where we can earn our own perfection and even when we fall short we can through our own repentance elevate ourselves again and begin to try again on our own merit whereas christianity declares such things futile. I find human nature in judaism more possible for it, more encouraging, even as we all fall short we have what that it is possible to try for, to fix. Those who judge in the place of god are, I believe, usually wrong. That God gave us life and that god cared enough to communicate to us and to tell us what was good for us in the first place, what else is love? Song of Songs is read by certain Jews every sabbath because the sabbath itself is an act of love and Song of Songs is hard to interpret as about anything else. For reading on Judaism as love and awe i would make two real suggestions to start out with. Abraham Joshua Heschel's "The Sabbath" and anything by Rabbi David Aaron who deals a lot with God directly. For the latter see http://www.isralight.org/ . On a different note, people are people. All of them, including the religious folk, for better or worse have failings. I would argue that God desserves better than to be judged by his followers, whatever followers they may be, as humans by any deffinition are flawed and god by any real deffinition is not. that was rather long for a first time post... thanks for reading, i hope it was helpful.
Lazy Iguana, *LOL* An unfalsifiable hypothesis that is as good as any other.
Rock of Galilee, Interesting and well-thought out. Thanks for sharing!
Aral, I am very curious about your faith (this is not an attempt to start an argument, I am truly curious). Why do you bother to have a faith at all, or practice it, if it accepts all other religions as equally valid? Wouldn't it be better to just chuck it and go golfing on Sundays instead? Sleeping in and the beach always beckon me on Sundays if I'm not forcing myself to get up and go to church.
Barbara,
You have your comments disabled in your most recent post. I know you didn't want any comments for the one before that, but I'm betting this is a mistake. ;o)
rock and trading fences,
Thank you for your insights. You have both made me think, and the post above has been created, without need to comment. I very much appreciate your comments. I have read the Heschel book, and it is absolutely beautiful.
I have enjoyed reading all these posts these last days, and all the comments too.
I was raised as a Christian, but lost my "faith" when I worked in welfare in the L.A. area, a lifetime ago. I saw a black baby who had been burned ash-white all over by his mother, using a clothing iron. Saw little girls with objects crammed into their little vaginas, a baby with his eyes and mouth sewn shut, lots of horrible other stuff too bad to write down. I wondered where god was.
If I had continued to believe, I would have gone mad. Easier for me to recognize that there was no god, than to believe that one existed, and would not help those in need.
With those who believe, I have no quarrel. If you believe, then you BELIEVE. If you don't, then you don't. IMHO, no one should try to persuade another on this issue.
It all comes down to free will and sin.
Doug,
Interesting post.
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