Gay Parade In Jerusalem
Over the past several days, lots of controversial has surfaced surrounding a gay parade that is to take place this coming Friday in Jerusalem, Israel. There are two opposite factions, one representing the Haridim (the ultra-religious Jews) and those who claim that Israel is a democracy and therefore individuals should have the right to freedom of speech.
It is a issue where emotions run high, and consequently, several acts of violence have taken place, including trash cans being set on fire, stones hurled at police, and 15 religious Jews arrested today alone in what is certainly a highly charged issue. The police chief in Israel, was compared to a Nazi for allowing this parade to happen. For more on this story, see the following:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378324335&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
As a Jew, it pains me deeply to see my own people fighting one another, risking their own lives, and causing violence towards one's own people. That being said, a case can also be made for perhaps holding the parade in Tel Aviv, a city that might be more compromising and welcoming.
This debate will continue and here are some of the questions: Do you think that the gay parade should be held in Jerusalem? Are acts of violence, putting human life and property at peril an appropriate response to displeasure towards this parade? Is it fair to compare Jews, from being religious v. Secular, or are there many gray areas in between? Is it not enough that Israel is surrounded by 22 countries, where people hate them, that acts of hatred and violence have to be perpetrated among our own people? Is there a solution here?
Thank you for your minds.
It is a issue where emotions run high, and consequently, several acts of violence have taken place, including trash cans being set on fire, stones hurled at police, and 15 religious Jews arrested today alone in what is certainly a highly charged issue. The police chief in Israel, was compared to a Nazi for allowing this parade to happen. For more on this story, see the following:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378324335&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
As a Jew, it pains me deeply to see my own people fighting one another, risking their own lives, and causing violence towards one's own people. That being said, a case can also be made for perhaps holding the parade in Tel Aviv, a city that might be more compromising and welcoming.
This debate will continue and here are some of the questions: Do you think that the gay parade should be held in Jerusalem? Are acts of violence, putting human life and property at peril an appropriate response to displeasure towards this parade? Is it fair to compare Jews, from being religious v. Secular, or are there many gray areas in between? Is it not enough that Israel is surrounded by 22 countries, where people hate them, that acts of hatred and violence have to be perpetrated among our own people? Is there a solution here?
Thank you for your minds.
64 Comments:
Parades celebrating anything should be held everywhere...
People can protest peacefully...
Those who don't protest peacefully should be arrested...
Israel is a democracy... Yes?
shame on the israeli government for giving them a permission to parade they should be kicked out of israel or stoned to death gay is a disease and very sinful god hates
Dear Barbara,
You are truly blessed.
My cat, Skittles, and I got up around 4:30 am this morning. We enjoyed the full moon while walking in the herb garden.
Life is good!
I don't know what to say about the gay pride parade in Israel. I would hope that some day the issue of separation of church (or synagogue) and state could be resolved.
WW
i, too, am baffled.
i, too, am baffled.
A small correction: there has not been any place called Palestine since 1947. There is the State of Israel with the Palestinian territories called Gaza.
And yes, while in Israel in August, I learned that this State is indeed surrounded by 22 countries, many who are inhabited by invididuals who do not like Jews. This of course, is a completely separate issue from the Gay parade in Jerusalem, but since it was brought up, I thought the points were worthy of response and correction.
Hi Barbara,
Happy, happy 15th Birthday! I am so happy for you. Thanks for stopping by and sharing your birthday with me.
********
I think the parade should take place in Jerusalem. All people should be accepted for who they are, including secular and religious Jews and all the gray areas in-between; gay people should be accepted for who they are regardless of what city they are celebrating in.
Well, gay people have lived in Jerusalem for millenia. Why shouldn't they have a parade? I can't see why religious bigotry should hold sway in Jerusalem any more than in Colorado Springs, USA.
"Security" should not be used as a cloak to deny fundamental human liberties. There are indeed legitimate security needs, but this would not be one of them.
Quasar, I take offense at your calling Israel a "nazi state." You may not be a supporter of Israel (as Barbara and I are) and that is your choice, but to categorize it as such is disgusting. And wrong. The Jews are not lining up the Palestinians and gassing them. Or trying to annihilate them.
Barbara, it pains me also to learn of this Jew-on-Jew violence. The homosexual parade/protest should be able to take place w/out violence. That is just wrong.
Quasar,
Circular logic is understood to be illogical. What you posted is gibberish.
A jew is a person descended from a certain genetic pool? - not a lawful cause for an exclusive nazi state
A jew is a person from a certain religious sect? - not a lawful cause for an 'exclusive' nazi state
What the hell is this? Gibberish, meaningless frothing at the mouth that is not based upon fact.
I am tempted to write more, but unless you can frame a more coherent argument based upon fact there is no point.
YY,
You do remember why the temple was destroyed. You are engaging in the same shameful behavior.
Barbara,
The people who engage in violent protests are committing a chilull Hashem.
If you don't like the parade, don't go, or protest it, peacefully.
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What intersting and varied comments.
Quasar, I would have to agree with both Jack and Stacey here. Your comments do not make any logical sense, and seem to be based upon false logic and information. Moreover, they give one the idea that you are anti-semetic as well. If this is an erronous conclusion on my part, please step up to the plate and demonstrate otherwise.
I do not have enough infomation to understand the reference to YY's comment about the second destruction of the temple, so please enlighten me, Jack.
Stacey, it pains me as well to see one Jew turn against another, especially in acts of violence.
YY: I have this question to you, and if you could please answer: in your mind, who is the better man: a homosexual who observes Shabbath, in accordance with the laws of the Torah, or a Jew, who decerates the Sabbath?
a jew needs to observe shabbos plus not engage in homosexuality but if you are forced to choice than being homosexual is alternative than not observing shabbos in other words better to observe shabbos and be homo
NO
the temple was destryoed because bes din didnt stone homos to death as god wants bes din to do its a plain clear cut verse in livitcous
to men having anal sex they should both be stoned
now how dare these sick minded homos to pride themself in gods land what CHUTZPA
Wait... Is the implication there that Nazi's LIKE gay pride?? Wow, that's new.
[/sarcasm]
At the risk of sounding hateful to the overly sensitive (though not intended to), of all the people making undue, or at least highly questionable, comparisons of people to Nazis/Hitlers, Israelis are doing this over what seems to amount to a gay pride parade?
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over? I'd honestly like to understand this. (or maybe that line was in the interest of sales of the news outlet publishing it, I dunno)
Whether one agrees with YY or not, at least he is knowledge, charming, and his arguments are consistent in accordance with his beliefs!
The parade will continue in Jerusalem, although it has been re'routed. The Chief Rabbinate is encouraging that responses be non'violent.
It pains me to see the Jews fighting one another, as if we do not have enough to worry about in Israel, where we are being attacked by enemies from all sides. Frankly, I do not like seeing the religious Jews put down, nor do I find it appealing to put down those who are not as observant. I think it is painful, to say the least.
Barbara,
I am referring to sinat chinam. It is hatred that is without merit. Pointless hate is why we lost the second Temple, or so my rebbeim taught me.
there is a mitzvah mechuah its one of the 613 possitive commandments when you see your brother commiting a sin you are obligated to prevent him in anyway possible from sin if you have an opportunity for machuah and you dont protest hashem will punish you too clear cut verse clear cut mitzvah thats what god wants from us to protest and fight the sinners
(anyone want to talk with me about this will have to call me since i cannot constantly respond electronivaly)
WHOA! What a wild little piece of news that is. I won't comment definitively because I can't stand it when a non-citizen gets critical of our policies and laws.
All that being said, my humble opinion is that if it's a true democracy, and it's in their constitution that marches and protests are allowed, then they must allow them. However, I'm also sure that the protestors who protest the protestors will be there too, and that's allowed also!
I don't mind gay parades but just not in Jerusalem!
A lively discussion, indeed.
Quesar: I am not posting any of your comments, since I think they are inappropriate, show hatred of Jews, and are based upon illogical thought and information. Moreover, I think some of your words are inciting ill-will in others.
Thank you for your past contributions.
kasamba
couldnt agree with you more
There is definitely a range of emotions here, as well as in Jerusalem.
To me, the use of violence is as much a violation of halacha (Jewish law) in many respects.
YY - I do not understand your comment: you say gay is a disease, and then agree with kasamba that the parade should take place, but just not in Jerusalem? This makes no sense with your prior argument.
Saur - yes, this is indeed a wild piece of news.
I think the best thing the people of Jersulem can do is totally ignore the gay parade. I am surprised that the government allowed it to take place but they did, so ignore it completely....The more attention a person pays, the more attention the gays will get, which is what they want or they wouldn't parade. Does this make sense?
IMVHO:
I just don't think it's right that a parade that's entirely defined by sexuality, a very private act in Judaism, should take place in the holiest city in the world (for me, it's not so much the gay thing, the problem is defining yourself by who you sleep with...I really am not interested by what you do at night..or whenever).
YY
mechuah says that I am obligated to help my brothers understand that burning tires, throwing stones and acting like delinquents does nothing to bring us together.
It only tears us apart.
"A private act such as sexuality should not take place in the holiest city in the world."
TRW: this is a very wise and salient point, and one that has much merit. My personal opinion, which I hint at in the post itself, is that I think the parade would have had a better impact and made those who felt a need to express themselves in such a way in the city of Tel Aviv. It would have been a good middle-ground. Just my own humble opinion, on this very provocative issue.
I think that just like the activists want respect, they should respect others and have it somewhere else
The reaction and 'dialogue' among Jews regarding the parade scheduled for this Friday continues. For those of you continuing to be interested in this fascinating story see. www.jpost.com.
Here is another question, that for me is pivotal: Is the tearing away of one Jew from another, the violence, and the lack of tolerance that one can see within the eyes and efforts of many, worse than the idea of the parade itself in Jerusalem?
As indicated, for sake of peace and compromise, my on personal opinion is that the parade should take place in Tel Aviv, to respect all, and for the best result in terms of security and safety. That being said, I am troubled still by the violent reactions and lack of tolerance exhibited by many who boycott the parade and let their beliefs be known in this fashion. After all, Jerusalem IS the holy city, and is it not just as cruel, demeaning and unnecessary to set trash cans on fire, spill oil on roads, throw stones, and react in such a manner?
Food for thought!
This is a sensitive topic because we in Jerusalem wish to promote family values. The Tora forbids gay relationships.
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Hate me for being born who I am or love me for who I am. It really is your choice. But when deciding, reflect upon your own circumstances before you decide.
If you prescribe hatred to G-d then you have made G-d into the devil.
if jews violate harsh commandments from the torah hashem doesnt want we should tolerate it
as far as the gay is a disease
people with an illness have the right to parade
They could do what they want, they just shouldn't go to a holy city and offend people. Go somewhere else. Respect goes both ways
Parades are good; the only bad thing is when they are deliberately held in an area that will inflame high emotions.
The police should be able to separate any factions.
I'm a little late to the discussion, and I realize that not being Jewish myself, I may not really have much place casting my opinion on this matter.
Nonetheless, I personally feel that that if the gay community in Jerusalem, Israel wishes to celebrate with a parade, they should be free to do so!
While I respect YY's comments as his personal beliefs, I have to deeply disagree with any notion that homosexuality is sinful. There are many, many shades of love in this world, and homosexuality is just another beautiful color.
It is sad to hear of the violence, but unfortunately this type of behavior often stems directly from beliefs that somehow being gay is wrong, and therefore to be feared and shunned. When people are scared or lack understanding, they often behave shamefully.
Again, I'm not Jewish myself, but speaking as a woman who herself loves in many different ways, I personally support the celebrations of gay pride in all parts of the world.
hmm... how far removed is this hateful thinking of gays in relation to Hitler's thoughts of jews/retarded people?
not much...
funny how people so "persecuted" can still find someone that they want to destroy...
The following is from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
The Nazi campaign against homosexuality targeted the more than one million German men who, the state asserted, carried a "degeneracy" that threatened the "disciplined masculinity" of Germany. Denounced as "antisocial parasites" and as "enemies of the state," more than 100,000 men were arrested under a broadly interpreted law against homosexuality. Approximately 50,000 men served prison terms as convicted homosexuals, while an unknown number were institutionalized in mental hospitals. Others—perhaps hundreds—were castrated under court order or coercion. Analyses of fragmentary records suggest that between 5,000 and 15,000 homosexual men were imprisoned in concentration camps, where many died from starvation, disease, exhaustion, beatings, and murder.
Yes, it is true: Nazi's targeted homosexuals along with the mentally ill and killed them in addition to 6 million Jews.
In my humble opinion, for a Jew to call another Jew a Nazi is an abonomination!
Religious Jews are not attempting to kill homosexuals because of who they are. Like I said before, they are asking that they not have a parade that takes a personal and private thing and spoils it by blasting it through the streets of the holiest city in the world.
I think the Nazi comparison is quite inappropriate.
The nazi comparison is inappropriate. The Charedim have done a better job of publicizing this than the organizers ever could have done.
holiest city in the world?
jeez with all the killing between the jews and everybody else, it's kinda hard to see where the "holy" starts and the "evil" begins
To give everyone an update, the parade has been rescheduled, to be held in a stadium inside the Hebrew University. With the recent incident in Gaza strip, Israel is on high alert now.
It is an interesting exercise, at best, to watch how people react when someone questions their core values, or wants to threaten them in any way. While I completely respect the Haredim, the religious, their right to think, dress, worship and be who they are, I do not endorse the violence that they directed towards others in this situation, setting trash cans on fire, spilling oil, throwing rocks, nor do I endorse their speech, which bordered on the slander, towards other Jews, especially. We are all we have left, and to treat one another, if they do not agree with our way of thinking or acting, in such a manner, to me, is a direct affront on God, and on the survival of our people.
I too respect Jerusalem, its beauty, its holiness, and its glory. I think if the religious want the city to be respected too, they should set a GOOD example, not one in which our neighbors might display should be choose to disagree with them, by being violent, and using poor speech.
The future of our people, the manner in which we interact with one another, is so important, for ALL of us. Personally, I think the idea of putting the parade in the Hebrew University is better for everyone concerned.
I will be absent for a few days. I am attending the General Assembly here for the Jewish Federation for 4 days, (in between work and court) beginning Sunday, and will not be near the computer.
Shabbath Shalom.
I know that I'm coming in on this rather late, and frankly with the all the hateful anti...just about everything statements that have been made, I'm kinda glad about that. But I'm with Kasamba and those who feel that you shouldn't have a parade to deliberately offend people. Remember when the Nazis wanted to parade in Skokie? Can they do it? Yes. Do they have the right to do it? Yes. Should they do it? Absolutely not. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean that it should be done. Let them continue to have their party and parade in Tel Aviv. Everyone will be much happier. Good Shabbos
The parade took place inside a closed statium in Jerusalem, afterall.
I am curious how religious Jews feel about violent acts being committed towards other Jews if something does not turn out the way the want it to be. Do this show a love of G-d? A love of Jerusalem? A love of fellow Jews?
Oh Barbara, you are asking if we live in a perfect world, we don't! People of all religions, whether they be Jew, Christain, Muslim, or whatever are not perfect people. We are a work in progress! We shouldn't be fighting amongst ourselves but we do because we are not perfect.
I am not jewish but don't you have different factions of jews? Do they fight amongst themselves because of the differences of their beliefs? Look at all the different Christian religions, Baptish, Methodists, etc. They don't all agree. Hopefully they respect each other and their religions. I happen to be LDS (Mormon) and there are plenty of people who don't agree with our religion. It is a real shame that people can't respect each other more.
Quite the lively discussion you have going on here Barbara - and I noticed you have celebrated the passing of a milestone, well done!
As I understand it, Israel is a religious state - a theocracy, abeit a democratic one. If having a gay parade, or for that matter, a heterosexual parade violates the precepts of the state religion, there is no reason the state should be compelled to capitulate.
Having said that, it comes as no surprise to me that there are homosexual Jews, just as homosexuals exist in every other religion, or lack thereof. If the interpretation of religious texts allows what past interpretations did not, then perhaps an evolutionary movement is taking place, just as it has in certain sects of the Christian faith.
Although a belief that certain sacred scriptures are the word of God prevails among all religions (each believing theirs is the TRUE word of God), those beliefs are subject to re-interpretation over time - and history has proven this to be the case.
Is Israel responding to a movement towards a more tolerant interpretation - or perhaps just towards more tolerance regardless of interpretation? I am not sure, but I agree with Saur, I wouldn't stick my nose into another sovereign states business.
Mike
awesome i was so happy to hear that the government shoved the gays into a closed room
hashem is so proud of us we prevented these sadaminites from tainting the holy city of yerushaliam
a rule of law has to be upheld barbara dont you believe if a person murders people he should be killed if he can be stopped otherwise?
lets say its a yid then hashem told us we need to look away at the fact that he is a yid and execute him same with gays has nothing to do with intolerance
Well, YY, having a parade to express oneself is distinguishable from murdering someone. And why do you not answer the question regarding the violent responses of some of the religious in their protests_ Do you think this is appropriate for a holy city like Jerusalem_
Moreover, why is it that the people who claim to be so God fearing will not serve in the Army nor fight to defend the Jewish State of Israel, but will fight other Jews when they feel as if transgressions take place_
My computer is not working properly here, therefore the punctuation is not good. I am going to the GA for the Jewish Federation for a few days. Meanwhile, I would hope that many of you will continue to ponder these provocative questions.
Have fun in Georgia!
Well Barbara, you have quite a heated discussion going on over here. Part of me wants to join in and educate some of the contributors, but I think I will pass.
I just stopped by to say, "Hi", and tell you that today is my AA birthday.
sometimes I wish people would put more thought into the battles they fight. Israel is a nation beset with much larger and more dangerous issues than a Gay march. I would hope they would focus on those.
Y.Y...I understand the need for you to follow your faith as you see it. Is it not Hubris for you to dictate that others comply with you? It seems that is a similar mindset to fascist Islam
yes you are correct
israel isnt a jewish state is a secular state that majority of people are jewish just like you dont call the USA a spanish state
it would be against the torah to serve in israeli military to protect a government that is built on being free of torah and mitzvos
this is my last comments on blogs about judaism fell free to email me
Yes, the discussion is indeed lively and spirited!
From what I understand of the religious Jews in Israel, they have not ever been interested in fighting for the land of Israel, regardless of how the state would be constituted. They live there, and consider themselves citizens of the State, but draw the line when it comes to fighting. From what I know, I doubt that they would fight no matter how the State was set up. That being said, it does not mean that they do not contribute to the state in a meaningful way, nor help when necessary. As you know, I do not wish to disparage my own people, regardless of our differences.
I am currently attending the GA, i.e. General Assembly, in Los Angeles, which is made up of about 5,000 Jews from around the world. The theme of the Assembly, which, is quite varied, is about bringing Jews together, not apart, especially in matters of Israel, for the good of our people, who face bigger threats from necular powers such as Iran, and possibily other Shite nations down the line.
To spin our wheels, fighting one another, in my opinion, is painful, and does not further our cause to stay connected as Jews, but tears us apart.
Hi Barbara,
Did you see me wave at you from the convention hall.
YY,
You are quite a guy, but I don't buy what you are selling.
HI Jack,
No, sorry, I did not see you waive, within the sea of more than 4,000 people, which was glorious!
Great post! I agree that it is painful to watch interfighting when there is so much hatred surrounding them... I am glad to see that there is freedom of speach there as well... whether you agree with peoples views or not, everyone deserves the right to be heard. Just my opinion.
Also late to the discussion:
My seems that Gay Humans will most likely be the last to achieve freedom from hatred. We are an easy target for self righteous humans who have a direct line of communication to the Diety. Sadly, I am not suprized by the actions of Jerusalem, nor any other city where we have tried to march for our own right to self determination and basic human rights. The story of Sodom&Gommorah is totally lost to the ignorant who see only the sexual part of who we are, that is not what defines us except by those who can only see that small part of who we really are, sad.
Barbara, you are a fine person to put this out for discussion, and very even handed in moderating such a 'debate'. Thank you for being the person you are today, maybe the future will hold more humans such as you.
YY: you need to join the Human Race and leave you EthnoCentric Ideas of Racial and Religious superiority where they belong,,, on the trashheap of Human Evolution. Please Join the 21st century and maybe you can help us fight the fundamentalist disease that truly threatens mankind. It doesn't matter whose religion makes these claims of such superiority, they all are holding humanity in the struggle of terror we see daily in the news. May your G_D open your eyes to your own disease. Be healed, and become whole my friend.
Why do you let your sexuality define who you are? People do not engage in "Staight Pride" Rallies/Parades they do not carry a "Straight Pride" flag. I don't see the need for any of it.
Furthermore, tolarence has it's limits G-d does not tolerate sin and niether should anyone who believes or follows G-d. We should however still show love and offer guidance to all of G-d's people because he loves all of his children.
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