What are you Driving At?
As many know, California is a multi-cultural land. Surrounded by trees, oceans, mountains, and many other exotic fauna, we also have many different individuals from various parts of the world. Being so close to the Mexican boarder, the area speaking Spanish, which I do fluently, is definitely a plus. In addition, in my neighborhood, I am surrounded by many Asian and Indian families as well. It is a real opportunity to see the different faces of the world.
At the last November election, one of my good friends was running for Superior Court judge. As I was campaigning for her, I noticed a petition being passed around, which somewhat surprised me. It was an attempt to get an initiative on the ballot that would restrict driver's licenses to those individuals who are here legally. I thought about this, and all its ramifications, pitfalls, and what it would mean. Children, who are driven to school by their parents, who do not have legal status, forced to go elsewhere for transportation, some people driving anyway, if it passed, without a licenses, thereby affecting the safety of those now on the road. People who pay taxes for various services now being denied the right to drive? This is a complex question. It also made me think of times when I had encountered various up scale drivers in my own neighborhood, of Asian nationality, some unable to speak the language, as I was telling them to please watch where they were going. Did they undertand what I was saying about keeping their eyes on t he road?
So here is the question for the day: Should those individuals who are here illegally be denied the right to a state driver's license? What are some factors in favor and against such meansures? Should the driver's test be in English only?
Thank you for your minds.
At the last November election, one of my good friends was running for Superior Court judge. As I was campaigning for her, I noticed a petition being passed around, which somewhat surprised me. It was an attempt to get an initiative on the ballot that would restrict driver's licenses to those individuals who are here legally. I thought about this, and all its ramifications, pitfalls, and what it would mean. Children, who are driven to school by their parents, who do not have legal status, forced to go elsewhere for transportation, some people driving anyway, if it passed, without a licenses, thereby affecting the safety of those now on the road. People who pay taxes for various services now being denied the right to drive? This is a complex question. It also made me think of times when I had encountered various up scale drivers in my own neighborhood, of Asian nationality, some unable to speak the language, as I was telling them to please watch where they were going. Did they undertand what I was saying about keeping their eyes on t he road?
So here is the question for the day: Should those individuals who are here illegally be denied the right to a state driver's license? What are some factors in favor and against such meansures? Should the driver's test be in English only?
Thank you for your minds.
20 Comments:
Barbara: " People who pay taxes for various services now being denied the right to drive?"--If they are not here legally, then they don't have SSNs and are not paying SS tax or income taxes.
Isn't issuing DLs, in a way, validating their illegal status?
thc: if you read my post carefully, it says taxes for services, i.e. sales taxes, not income taxes. But I have clarified my point.
thc: you did not answer the question, so now that the clarification is there, how do you weigh in on the issue please?
I think that the State should have applications and forms in Spanish as well as English because of the large numbers that speak Spanish. If there is a large percentage that speak another language, then that should be included.
(The Empire State building has pamphlets in probably a dozen languages ~ and I'm talking slick and full-color.)
What about international drivers licenses? I've heard of them, but have never seen one, nor do I know anything else about them.
oh, and I've posted a pez for you at my blog.
In my opinion, illegals should not be given driver's licenses. Licenses can be used as forms of ID to board planes, and they give legitimancy where none should be given.
On the flip side of that, when one gets a license they must give their thumb print and have their photo taken. These are good things to have should an illegal need to be tracked down.
I don't think passing the driver's test necessarily makes illegals better drivers than they would be. A monkey could pass that test.
I don't know how illegals even manage to obtain a driver's license. In CA, a Social Security Number is REQUIRED.
Here is what is required for those applying for a driver's license who are over 18. This is directly from the CA DMV site:
Visit a DMV office (make an appointment for faster service)
Complete application form DL 44 (An original DL 44 form must be submitted. Copies will not be accepted.)
Give a thumb print
Have your picture taken
Provide your social security number. It will be verified with the Social Security Administration while you are in the office.
Verify your birth date and legal presence
Provide your true full name
Pay the $25 application fee (the application fee for a commercial driver license is $57)
Pass a vision exam
Pass a traffic laws and sign test. There are 36 questions on the test. You have three chances to pass.(Sample Test)
We have a big problem with illegals in the country and neither party has the guts to deal with it effectively because they fear losing the Hispanic vote. I don't think it will be adequately dealt with until we suffer an attack due to our lax regulation (border security, deporting illegals) in this matter.
In my opinion:
The test doesn't need to be English only because non-English speakers will learn what the street signs mean (such as yield, stop, etc...)
I could be wrong, but wasn't the initiative to LET illegal immigrants apply for licenses, since so many of them do not have social security numbers, and are driving without licenses, therefore posing a risk to other drivers on the road?
Well, my big worry is that the road signs and warnings, etc., are in English. So people who drive need to be able to read English.
Here is my stand on the issue.
If people are already here, they should not be denied driver's licenses based upon their legal status. Not all illegals are from Mexico, as some people may think. I live in an area where there are upscale Chinese and Koreans who are not here legally as well. The issue of immigration is a complex one, and some safeguards need to be in place to control the borders if the issue is on immigration.
That being said, once people are here, certain other safeguards can be insitituted if safety is the key issue, which in my opinion, it should be when dealing with the right to drive. Safety includes the ability to read signs and communicate if need be regarding the rules of the road. More often than not, I am unable to communicate with people who are driving in my neighborhood. When my son was little, someone almost ran him down. When I tried to talk about it, the person, unable to speak English, and NOT Mexican, just drove away. Consequently, I believe that for safety reasons the driving test should be in English.
I do not think people, nor children, for that matter, should be punished based upon the status of their children.
....opps..Last post should read, children should be punished based upon the legal status of their parents.
angela: There was an initiative being circulated which would prohibit anyone in Califonia without legal status from obtaining a California driver's license.
Oh, I see. These folks thumb their noses at U.S. immigration law *and* they are tax cheats.
Shouldn't we be asking why they are not being prosecuted for their crimes or deported?
I think that it is far too easy to get a drivers license PEROID.
I have a friend living in Germany. over there, the drivers test is in GERMAN! And so are all the signs. The drivers test is not easy, you have to demonstrate that you know all the rules in the very thick drivers manual. You have to go to drivers school, at a cost of roughly $2500. The final exam is a road test that takes more than a few minutes.
The result? Germany has some of the safest roads in the world. Drivers actually know how to drive! Imagine that.
As compared to here, where you can get a drivers license from a box of Cracker Jacks.
thc,
For some reason, I am curious why you are not answering the question posed, and want to create a different type of question. I would most like to see your answer.
Also, from your blog, I see that you have adopted a question/answer type mode now, so maybe this is a question you can ask on your blog. This particular post deals with two issues: (1) whether driver's licenses should be based upon legal status, and (2) whether the driving test should be in English only. Deportation, criminalization, immigration are separate, and complicated, issues.
Interesting debate you`ve got going here...I am from the UK, so I don`t fully understand the whole situation you described in California, so bear with me if I have picked anything up wrong.
Saw an article on TV here which said that in the US, one in five children speak Spanish. As the demographics change, so will the need to adjust to this. There is a theory that in a few years along the way, the most spoken language in the US will be Spanish.
It may well make sense to have road signs and instructions in both English and Spanish.
Immigration is a thorny issue in most Western countries just now, and there are valid and invalid arguments on both sides.
You cannot blame people from wanting to escape poverty and wish for a better life, at the same time, small economies have to be able to support the services for their populations, and this is often done through taxation.
Driving tests...I think they are imperative...people forget that a car is a minimum one ton guided missile
which often kills and severely maims when not used correctly. Drivers have a responsibility, and a car is not a natural born right.
Recently, in the UK, a six year old girl and her mother were killed when
a driver ploughed into a bus-stop. He did not have a drivers license, no insurance, spoke only eastern european, and did not know how to drive. Now, these types of accidents happen all the time, not always because someone doesn`t understand the language of the road signs, but because people feel that it is a natural right to own and drive a car, regardless of anything or anyone else.
People regularly drink and drive. When they do, they always say.."I`m okay..." They never once think of the person they might injure or kill on the road.
Driving comes with responsibilities, or at least, it should.
In the UK, we have a problem where we need immigration to make up for a drop in our population. If it were not for our immigrant population right now, many areas of our services i.e.,our National Health Service,would grind to a halt.
At the same time, however, it is important that all immigrants are registered, and have access to health care etc. We have a rise in the incdence of both Tuberculosis(TB) and immune-resistant TB, thought to be linked directly to those immigrants who are not registered. The AIDS figures are also showing a marked rise.
Immigration is a bonus to a country, but there should be safegurds for all concerned.
I think that the issue of driving tests, and that of immigration are two entirely separate issues.
This country is built for driving, we are in love with our cars and in love with our roads. We are spread out, we work many miles from our homes and in many cities the public transportation system leaves a lot to be desired.
If you are in this country, whether as a citizen or as an immigrant, legal or otherwise, it would be impossible to live any sort of life without occassionally getting behind the wheel.
People are going to drive, if you take away their driver's licenses they will still drive. I don't see that taking away a license is any sort of detterent and would do nothing to solve the complex immigration problems. I just don't see the point.
I thought I had been clear about my position, but let me be more blunt.
Illegal aliens should not be issued driver licenses. They have broken our immigration laws and, most likely, aren't paying any payroll taxes. They should be deported or prosecuted for their crimes. Therefore, whether to issue DLs is really moot.
Issuing DLs would be a little like saying, "hey, you have no respect for our legal system and you're a tremendous burden to law-abiding taxpayers but, is there anything we can do to make you more comfortable while you're here?"
B,
I personally think that people here illegally should not be allowed licenses. A license is a privilege, not a right, and I don't feel they have earned the privilege. I also think it's highly unlikely that allowing them to obtain a license will in any way ensure the safety of other motorists. Also, their very presence is a violation of the law - why should we assume that they're obeying other laws? Plenty of people, including illegal aliens, drive without licenses.
As for the language issue - I think applications should be in English only, simply because all traffic signs are in English, as are citations, summonses, etc. If the day comes that all of the aforementioned are universally bilinugual in this country, then by all means the driver's license application should be bilingual as well.
Just my 2 cents!
I think it's ridiculous to deny people driver's license if they are not here legally. Not having a driver's license is not going to make them go away! It will keep them on the roads, driving illegally and possibly causing accidents. The people who are here illegally are desperately looking for a better life for themselves and their children. Nearly all of them work extremely hard, at jobs we would hate to do. How can it do any HARM to let them get driver's licenses? Really, this goverment needs to take a leaf out of the Dutch goverment's book and face problems realistically. In Amsterdam prostitution is legal, and ensures that the sex workers do not spread aids. It is sensible - they knew that if prostution was illegal the sex workers would not go away! They would just be in greater danger when they worked.
Allow the 'illegal' people to get driver's licenses AND pay taxes. And then let them live here legally if they work hard and obey the laws of this country. They are going to stay here anyway, legally or not.
Oh, and driver's license tests should be in English and Spanish, as there is such a large Spanish speaking population here. The problem cannot be ignored!
Well I don't find any of this surprising. And it explains why they've made it so complicated for us (non-Japanese) to get driver's license.
Lazy Iguanna, I agree with you that German roads feel very safe. Certainly having difficult tests is a good way to insure that drivers really do know how to drive. The truth is most contries establish high costs as a way of discouraging people from driving and decreasing polution and traffic from cars.
However, just making the test or driving school more difficult is not enough to ensure safe drivers. Driving tests and courses are VERY exspensive here in Japan, and complex would be an understatement. However, per capita the rate of acidents and fatalities due to auto accidents is still higher than the US. The cultural habit of not checking one's blind spot when changing lanes and running red lights regularly (I rarely see less than three cars run a light!) probably has something to do with this.
Now as for California... with a substantial visable and growing Spanish speaking population people are getting uncomfortable. The more the "locals" feel their way of life is threatened the more they come up with legislation to somehow "fix" the foreigner problem. Simmilar things have poped up in many border states regarding ESL education, illigals in public schools, etc.
However, no matter what is done to inconvenience and discourage immigrants they will continue to come because they want a better way of life and our economy depends on those who are willing to do our dirty work. If what bothers you the most is their lack of contributing to the tax pool find a way to make them legal. Either that or raise your children to the pick berries you put on your cereal.
Like England and much of Europe Japan's birth rate continues to plummet. The average is now down to 1.2 kids per couple and the percent of women over 25 who want to get married is less than 50%. No amount of bribary is going to get that educated Japanese woman who fought for her career to pump out 3 kids and spend 25 years picking up after them and helping them study for their exams.
I just hope that Japan, like England, will finally recognize that it must open its doors to maintain its economic strength. Maybe then I won't have to deal with the hateful stares, reuglar foreign registration card checks when I go to the police box for questions or ride my bike, and black vans driving past my work pumping out anti-foreigner trash.
neko
Interested how someone who is `illegal` gets a drivers license in the first place....I imagine you would need (false) documentation.
The lazy iguana is right about Germany..because of the Autobahns, driving tests there are particularly stringent. I personally know of a case of a UK citizen who is being held in jail there at the moment pending trial. He crashed on the Autobahn, he is facing a charge of dangerous driving and manslaughter.
Godlessmom, (I have to say how much I love your username...really good!),
shares the views of many drivers in the west....however, on another note...the day is dawning when the combustion engine will be banned. There is a wakey-wakey call coming to everyone in the west, and probably within our lifetimes. It is no small co-incidence that most areas of conflict in the last few years have oil on their territory.
Resources are running out...the faster we use them..the faster they`ll disappear.
In Scotland, the water around the coast-line is warming. The sea-birds in certain areas along the coast have laid NO eggs this year. Naturalists are concerned. The birds are starving because the sand eels are gone. The sand eels have gone because the water is getting warmer. The white nosed dolphin is aso gone from the waters off Scotland. Doesn`t like warmer water either.
The water is getting warmer because of global warming.
I know the US government has a problem signing the Kyoto treaty, and it`s pretty obvious why...but time is running out.
Does no one care about what happens to their grandchildren and their great-grandchildren? Because that`s what it comes down to in the end.
Candirabbit...things are changing in Holland. Holland has been known as a liberal country for years, but due to certain events in Holland, including the murder of a media presenter...Holland have just voted for tighter control on immigration.
Holland is not feeling too liberal at the moment. Immigration has become the no 1 thorny issue.
I still feel that immigration is a much needed thing, but I do think that there should be controls, and that they should contribute to their new home.
If I came to live in the USA,(a country which I have visited and love) I would want to contribute to the US economy and pay my taxes to the US government.
I can understand the desperation of someone trying for a better life for themselves and their children, but there comes a point when the game would be up anyway....and what then...
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