Infidelity: How Do You Define it and When Do you Cross the Line?
As many of you know by now, I love a good argument and debate, especially with an intelligent individual. I am grateful for the many of you who offer insightful, intelligent and focused comments on this blog. Not being one to mince words, nor keep silent, as I am reading blogs all over, there is one topic that seems to crop up over and over again in some form or another and that is infidelity.
When I first wondered into blogsville, I was quite shocked, actually astonished to find that many blogs contained posts that were vulgar in orgin, and were often quite sexually graphic as well. What made these posts even more puzzling was that they were written by many men and women who claimed that they were very religious, and followed commandments and prohibitions strictly in their personal lives. This issue exists can surface among all who claim to be ultra-religious, a prime example being Jim Baker, who turned out to be an adulterous as well as a lier and cheater in his business, landing him in jail as well. It was quite paradoxical, at least to this reader, that they were so flippant and forthright when talking about sex, using graphic language and what I would call, crossing some barrier that I had believed was not ever any issue for them in real life. Does the veil of the internet allow us to express ourselves in ways that we might find prohibiting in real life? Should we not be vigilent here, with our words, even if we are not known, as if we are speaking to a trusted friend or person who wants to know us to be genuine?
To some, infidelity is a complicated question. Who among us can forget Bill Clinton own conclusion when he said he did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky, because to him, receiving oral sex did not fall within that definition. Something, more, at least for him, was required to meet the definition of infidelity.
Now, with computers, the veil of anoynomity, and the accessibility of meeting so many others with the touch of the key-board, many words and comments may be made, which, can, in my opinion, be taken to cross the line and turn fidelity into infidelity. To me, one's motives and intentions have a great deal to do with when and to what extent an innocent act or word can cross the line into unfaithful and dishonest conduct.
Here is the question of the day: What do you define as infidelity? Does physical contact need to be established, or can one cross the line by words, and if he/she has an intention and/or motive to be unfaithful? Where and how do you draw the line? Can you reconcile the words and voices of these individuals who claim to be highly religious, yet speak and perhaps act in ways that most, including spouses, would conclude constitute a betrayal? If one merely has lust inside his/her heat, is he/she being unfaithful?
We are still going to the music festival tomorrow. All is well, and I am thankful for each and every good day.
Thank you for your minds.
When I first wondered into blogsville, I was quite shocked, actually astonished to find that many blogs contained posts that were vulgar in orgin, and were often quite sexually graphic as well. What made these posts even more puzzling was that they were written by many men and women who claimed that they were very religious, and followed commandments and prohibitions strictly in their personal lives. This issue exists can surface among all who claim to be ultra-religious, a prime example being Jim Baker, who turned out to be an adulterous as well as a lier and cheater in his business, landing him in jail as well. It was quite paradoxical, at least to this reader, that they were so flippant and forthright when talking about sex, using graphic language and what I would call, crossing some barrier that I had believed was not ever any issue for them in real life. Does the veil of the internet allow us to express ourselves in ways that we might find prohibiting in real life? Should we not be vigilent here, with our words, even if we are not known, as if we are speaking to a trusted friend or person who wants to know us to be genuine?
To some, infidelity is a complicated question. Who among us can forget Bill Clinton own conclusion when he said he did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky, because to him, receiving oral sex did not fall within that definition. Something, more, at least for him, was required to meet the definition of infidelity.
Now, with computers, the veil of anoynomity, and the accessibility of meeting so many others with the touch of the key-board, many words and comments may be made, which, can, in my opinion, be taken to cross the line and turn fidelity into infidelity. To me, one's motives and intentions have a great deal to do with when and to what extent an innocent act or word can cross the line into unfaithful and dishonest conduct.
Here is the question of the day: What do you define as infidelity? Does physical contact need to be established, or can one cross the line by words, and if he/she has an intention and/or motive to be unfaithful? Where and how do you draw the line? Can you reconcile the words and voices of these individuals who claim to be highly religious, yet speak and perhaps act in ways that most, including spouses, would conclude constitute a betrayal? If one merely has lust inside his/her heat, is he/she being unfaithful?
We are still going to the music festival tomorrow. All is well, and I am thankful for each and every good day.
Thank you for your minds.
27 Comments:
In my opinion cheating or infidelity starts in the mind... You have a choice or a will to stop any thoughts from manifesting into actions. We all are tempted... It has been that way since the beginning of time... But ultimately the choice is yours. I think the internet does give people the opportunity to express who they really are. I am sure u watch the news and see the kind of sick things alleged honorable people are doing on the internet. Peoples true nature tend to surface when they think no one is watching or if they think they cannot be caught. On the final note if you give in to the thoughts of infedility in your mind and act on them consciosly or subconsciosly it is cheating... If you devote yourself in vows to another being u simply should honor that. And as far as people exclaiming religion... People kill in the name of religion.... What is in our true nature as a person always surfaces eventually, and for some the nature is not good... Have a great weekend Barbara. I worked 14 days straight i am looking forward to resting.
Thank you, soulsista.
Insightful and well put, as usual.
Have a restful weekend as well.
the orthodox rabbis all over the world strictly prohibited the use of the internet totaly except in business office with the entire history emailed to someone so those religious people you see online arent the good example barbara
including myself
engaging in sexual talk online and surfing porn i consider that infidelity even if it leads to nothing
one more thing barb
one thing with me even when i dont agree with you atleast my comments for the most part are kept to the topic not like the others you know who i mean
Yes, YY, you do keep to the topic, and for the most part, do add intelligent and informative comments to this blog.
Truthfully, although we may disagree on much of what we believe and write, I do have absolute respect for you, and that is the truth.
I think it's partly the nature of the beast. Blogging, that is, but also the human beast. Blogging is essentially diarying in a manner that invites voyeurism, thereby offering an excellent public forum in which to work out the most personal matters. I've watched myself change dramatically recently, and I give blogging much credit for that.
Barb, I agree with Soulsista that it begins in the mind. If a person is lusting after someone who is not his/her spouse, then it is cheating. Bill Clinton is a prime example of someone who twisted the truth to make it "look" OK.
I can't believe what some people say on the internet. It just blows my mind.
Anything that you wouldnt share with your spouse... that is pretty much my take on it.
Not so much in thoughts as actions. I think everyone has thoughts of other people. Its taking action either online or in person that counts.
I also think that like Bill Clinton different people have differing views on what 'is' is and what constitutes sex/infidelity. Perhaps that is why so many marriages end up in divorse.
Interesting post Barbara!! As always!
cheers! K
I think it starts when two people get intimate in one way or another.
Even if people never met, but exchange sensual and suggestive words and innuendos in a chartroom I believe that would be a form of being unfaithfulness.
But physical infidelity in my eyes is unforgivable while other forms, such as flirting with a colleague or chatting with strange people on the net are easier to forgive and forget.
To some, infidelity is a complicated question. Who among us can forget Bill Clinton own conclusion when he said he did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky, because to him, receiving oral sex did not fall within that definition. Something, more, at least for him, was required to meet the definition of infidelity.
There's also the, umm, possibility that he simply lied and later got caught. :-)
I think it's harder than ever these days, with the internet and a lack of standards and morals on television ("Waltons" & "Little House" vs. "Desperate Housewives" and "Windfall"). Those that manage to stay faithful should congratulate themselves.
As I added in my post, another prime example of an individual, who claimed to be a religious Christan man of God in public, but was not so in private, was Jim Baker. Not only was he unfaithful, but his behavior in businesss made him a criminal, and he landed in jail as well.
I suppose if you live under a moral code that say's lusting after someone in your heart is cheating then to you, it's cheating.
what's sick & immoral to one person isn't neccesarilly sick or immoral to someone else.
The fact is religious people for all their piousness & moral rightousness are no diff. then anyone else when it comes down to it.It's easy for us to sit back & make judgements about other people, when we are doing the right thing.
If you think lusting in the heart is some kinda sin, then it is for you. But, i don't think anyone is immune to it.
Not everyone has the same moral code or a vengful God watching over them. I personally don't give much thot to what people are doing on the net.
As for myself, I like to have fun blogging & flirtation goes along with it on my blog. So far nobody has 'gotten out of line' yet.
Any time you break a promise to yourself and/or another you love you have crossed the line. It's pretty clear cut in my book. Great question. You made me think.
Don
Oh wow.. where to start...
INFIDELITY - Lack of fidelity or loyalty according to dictionary.com
Ok, this is deeper than the surface that surrounds it. I know, 'cause I used the sword against a friend once, and later on life swung the sword back at me.
If in your heart, sincerely and honestly you vow to love and to honor, then not being loyal or dishonoring is infidelity. ANd like some say, it definitely starts in the mind.
The problem, I think, lies in the fact that when most people make that vow, they DO NOT KNOW what they are doing. They confuse bliss or whatever for love. So, how could you cheat on love if you never really attained that feeling?
INfidelity does not have to be physical. But it cannot be mistaken for just flirting, teasing, or writing about sex. When it comes down to it, that is just fantasizing. However, when one starts putting mind and soul into someone else, therefore negating the emotions of their partner, that should be consider infidelity.
It is interesting that we do not really have to define these issues. For each one of us there is an internal mechanism that makes us feel good or bad about whatever it is we do. When we truly love someone we do not feel obligated to be loyal. It just happens. On the other hand, just the thought of someone might make us feel guilty.
The internet is nothing but an outlet. 20 years ago a spouse sat at home fantasizing, wishing they could go out to a bar and meet someone, but it was just simply impossible. Thats what the internet changed. It did not make anyone more 'unfaithful'.
About Baker and Clinton... well.. choose your vice; It all started with a bite of an apple.
T
Have a great weekend!
Tough question. I personally define it as sexual physical contact, though of course if I were to find out that my husband had carried on a passionate emotional affair with someone, I'd certainly feel cheated on.
Is it possible that some of these people you're talking about are using religion to try to rein themselves in? They may have impulses they feel guilty about, impulses that come through on their blogs, that they attempt to balance with pious allegiances. The result is a contradiction, but I'm not sure it's in the "religious person behaves impurely" order so much as the "impure person grasps at religion to make self feel less impure" order. I'm thinking about a similar concept illustrated by a research study I assign in class. Homophobic and nonhomophobic heterosexual men were exposed to visual erotica of three types: male/male, female/female, male/female. All were aroused (defined as erectile response) by the female/female and male/female pics, but only the homophobic guys got erections in response to the male/male pics. It suggests that their homophobia is an attempt to balance homosexual urges they find unacceptable. Similarly, I wonder if some of these "pious" individuals aren't in fact trumpeting their supposed piety to balance urges they find unacceptable but nonetheless hard to rein in (as the content of their blogs attests).
Then again, even devout people are sexual beings. Interesting issue all around.
Thinking of the definition of Infidelity - without looking it up.. I automatically thought 'loyalty' - but then decided against it - because one can remain loyal while still crossing the line of Fidelity...
So, after a rethink - the definition in my mind stands with - 'Trust' -
To me, Infidelity is having crossed the line of Trust.
Ex - Hubby says he's working late, but is really chatting on line to whomever.. he's not really disloyal, but HAS crossed the line of being trustworthy..
In a marriage (or any relationship really) it is the most important factor - to be able to trust wholeheartedly..
About the 'Frum' crowd, vulgarity and infidelity..
it does go against the grain ... we err as humans do...
but DO try and look at it from this point of view:
~A well known story - after WWII- a man - speaking to a rabbi, said that he had completely lost the urge and faith to remain religious, since in the camp he was in, a religious inmate who possessed a siddur (prayer book) - would lend it to people ONLY if they would give him their daily ration of bread. He was disgusted with this religious jew's callousness and behaviour and was disillusioned enough to give up his faith.
The rabbi looked at him kindly and said - Why not look at the hundreds of people who gave up this life-giving daily ration of bread to acquire something they treasured..
Barbara - what about those that overcome desires, challenges and the like.. for the sake of the Torah ..
Still, it is a shame that the religious people who should be setting an example, are acting disgracingfully..
I think that crossing the trust barriers differ in individual relationships - different people have different expecations. Alot of it has to do with 'exclucivity' or 'secrecy' as in emailing..
My friends husband is one of those 'vulgar' people - sends dirty emails.. and has vulgar language - all this within the vicinity of an extremely religious crowd of friends. We all ignore his remarks - don't give it too much attention - he is in the minority . Anyway - the point here is - he does all this in front of his wife (poor girl ) - so i don't feel he has crossed any barriers of trust (fidelity)..... other barriers, Yes!
The veil of the internet allows us expression - in comfort of anonymity -
I have given your statement -about acting differently on line than in person..some thought.
Some people want to reinvent themselves -some to express a side that they don't feel comfortable expressing in person..
But my feeling is that if they express vulgarity.. they are strengthening this side of their nature... If this is what they want to do, and believe that in principle it is okay for them... well, it's their life to live..
All of us have imperfections and sides that are less than beautiful..but is that where we want to shift our focus to?....even on the internet...
Who are we, ON PRINCIPLE?!
sinning in private and all that, comes under the same heading..
I don't think physical contact has to be established in order for something to be defined as Infidelity... I think it's all or mostly to do with intentions and motivations..
btw - this can be tricky many times, where one recieves signals that the other side does not mean to express..
Where and how to draw the line?
As early as possible!! Be vigilant and smart..
About reconciling vulgarity with the religious crowd - it's sad, but you cannot say one isn't religious because of it.. one can only hope the ones who are errant will improve their ways and set a better example..
And lastly about the heat-
I think it is not unfaithful! - If one is in heat - but takes no action.. it is not unfaithful - human certainly, vulnerable.... but overcoming it with strengths..
also - this is where a torah way of life comes in... making these instances less common....
btw - I agree very much with tmelendez
Trust is a big issue, which is why I think emotional infidility might have much more dramatic consequences than having sex with someone and having it mean nothing more than fullfilling a physical need.
Either way, one is not being honest with his/her spouse/partner, and that creates many problems and conflicts in a marriage and/or relationship.
Good questions. Good answers. I agree with you, Barbara. Cheating is cheating, be it emotional or physical.
And I happen to believe that emotional cheating can have more serious ramifications than most people admit. To many, the line is crossed only when physical contact has happened. But to me, emotional cheating is actually worse.
Barbara this is a hard one where I am concerned. Loyalty is a big thing in my book, and when a mate is not loyal, it’s hard for me to deal with --- still, with human behavior as it is, one has to live with infidelity, at sometime or other, be it mentally or physically.
Another thing that comes to mind when I think about infidelity is that it was a daily part of our lives. I was raisd in a place and during a time where infidelity was acceptable. Many of the men during my youth kept more than one wife, married by law or by jumping over the broom. My father had eight in all, sometime he stayed with more than one. As you can see, based on this type of environment, marrying a siblings was mre of a problem, which stemmed from accepted infidelity --- as it stood living in such an environment, some of us found it easy to accept infidelity as a matter of course once we got married.
Glad to see you doing well. Peace and blessings to you and your beloved family.
I'm going to go out on a limb and offer a re-frame of your question.
Each of us knows what's infidelity. What you would hate for your spouse to do to you, don't do to your spouse.
But what gets a person into that potential situation in the first place?
It seems to me that every experience and every person in our life has a purpose in our life, and that the purpose usually falls into one of three categories:
A. To make you wise
B. To get you to ask for help or to say thanks
C. For you to give or to receive an act of kindness.
Sometimes a single experience can have more than one purpose. Hashem gives us daily opportunities for the above.
Problem is, most of us have a hard time looking at that scorecard.
Dear BarbarafromCalifornia,
I don't want to fall into the spelling bee issue that came up with YY, but the Christian Evangelist you mentioned is Jim Bakker, with two K's.
I have many ministers in my family. Even a bishop. I have heard stories that most church going people do not hear, about the ordained going astray...affairs, embezzelment of church funds, sexual abuse, incest....
Anyway, my understanding of your question is about the difference between thought and action.
I would say that thoughts about cheating are just thoughts, until there is that one thought that leads to the action...
However I cannot explain what makes that one thought different, other that we choose to act on it. We have choices in life.
WW
I love your blog site! On the verge of thinking? Nah! Your questions spark the synapses of my brain! You tap into my thinking and from the thoughtful comments/perspectives from other bloggers, you seem to have a knack at picking the right topics.
Here are some of my thoughts.
The topic of the internet media "exposing" the hidden sexual fantasy side of the human is fascinating and bizarre at the same time. I have discussed this and thought about it a lot since I started blogging myself. Many times, I have been appalled by the disgusting carnal pictures that some post on their blogs and on the internet. It seems so prevalent.......
Trust is key to maintaining any relationship. Whether one can regain it after it's lost is up for debate, though I believe with dedication and lots of heartfelt talking/sharing one can move back to a trusting relationship.... sometimes. More often than not, once the trust is gone in a marriage, it has flown the coop!
Loyalty is important, but it can also be blinding. We are loyal to our families, including our extended families just for the sake of "being loyal" and yet sometimes even family members don't deserve our unfettered loyalty.
Initimacy is very multi-layered in my opinion .... spiritually, emotionally, physically. It is the foundation of any important relationship in my life. Whether it leads to the awareness/feeling of infidelity depends on the type of relationship, depth of the connection, the combination of the type of intimacy and if it crosses personal belief boundaries, religiously based or not.
I agree with Rabbi Seinfeld. We enter into relationships for those three reasons.........and they make us wiser, more thoughtful and open to forgiving and forgiveness.
We may think that we have control over our thinking, but do we really have full control over it? I dont know.
WoW! I love these comments, and it is evident that the thoughts and conclusions that everyone reaches are as complicated as the question itself.
Awareness, thank you for your words...I do like to make people think, as you can tell from the title of my blog...Moreover, I appreciate and agree with how you conclude that intimacy, like so much of everything, including ourselves, is very multi-layered. To me, this is a process, what I call pealing the oninon, and at each junction, we, as individuals uncover, discover, and consequently grow and disguard as the case may be. It is like sheding skin, but sometimes, we grow a new layer in the process of the peeling.
WW: I am a terrible speller, and please, if mistakes are made, I apologize. As you can tell from the quality of my thoughts, substance has always trumpted form...
Good question. When you can't tell your significant other about an experience you have crossed a line.
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