Jesus, Tolerance and Homosexuality
I am not a Christan woman, but have a strong faith and belief in God. As a Jew, I believe that Jesus was probably an amazing person, like a rabbi or prophet of his time, and had great impact on those around him. I also view him to be accepting and tolerant.
Which brings me to my question and I do need help understanding this, so if there are any Bible scholars out there, please feel free to weigh in as well. How do you feel Jesus would have reacted to homosexuality? Let us approach this question from two angles, one the Biblical and second, the social. How do you reconcile them? Do you think he would have been tolerant, accepting everyone around him regardless of sexual orientation, and practiced those beliefs in all aspects of his life? Assuming he was able to become a politican, do you think he would have pushed for homsexuals to be treated different from hetrosexual individuals.
Another deep, stimulating topic I know. Please enlighten me.
Thank you for your minds.
Which brings me to my question and I do need help understanding this, so if there are any Bible scholars out there, please feel free to weigh in as well. How do you feel Jesus would have reacted to homosexuality? Let us approach this question from two angles, one the Biblical and second, the social. How do you reconcile them? Do you think he would have been tolerant, accepting everyone around him regardless of sexual orientation, and practiced those beliefs in all aspects of his life? Assuming he was able to become a politican, do you think he would have pushed for homsexuals to be treated different from hetrosexual individuals.
Another deep, stimulating topic I know. Please enlighten me.
Thank you for your minds.
23 Comments:
I am not a Biblical scholar but to my knowledge there is no mention of homosexuality at all in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. On the other hand there are several examples of Jesus as accepting and understanding and several examples of him being angry at people who would pass judgement on others.
I honestly don't believe that homosexuals "choose" to be homosexual. Therefore I don't think that Jesus would have been angry with homosexuals any more than he would be angry with blue-eyed people. As a politician I honestly don't think he would ever try to legistlate any type of morality. He was all about teaching through example, not forcing obedience.
Hi Barbara,
I was just browsing around and here I see this very controversial title…
How strange but this is precisely the topic being discussed at my church!!
Check it out when you have a chance www.liquidnj.com
God has love for all, and even if we disagree with the morals of a certain group it does not mean that we as Christians have the right to “judge” and to put words in Jesus’s mouth. Bible says “love your neighbor” and let God judge on his own.
I’ll book mark you! Steph
Godlessmom is right, there is no mention of homosexuality in the gospels. (The letters of Paul have some anti-homosexual things to say, but that's not Jesus. Paul never met Jesus.) So we have absolutely no historical record of Jesus mentioning homosexuality or homosexual acts. In general, he was a pious Jew who knew the Hebrew Scriptures well... he would've known that there were verses condemning homosexual acts in there. Of course, he would have known that there were verses condemning fornication, mixing fibres, and eating shellfish, etc.
In general, Jesus tried to simplify faith. He said, "All the laws and prophets boil down to this: Love God with all your heart and mind, and love your neighbor." He went on to say, "Love your enemies." There's never a time when Jesus says, "But be sure to hate this group and that group."
If anything, he was radically inclusive. He hung around with all sorts of "low life" people, and he even took heat for that. I'm sure he would have hung around with those who participated in homosexual acts (there was no concept of "homosexuality" or "sexual orientation" as a permanent state/status until approximately 1865, so that wouldn't have even crossed his or anyone else's mind).
yey another one to sink teeth into! and i didn't need a dictionary - thank goodnes :)
actually, i was all ready to make a comment and now having read the previous comments all i have to say is:
yeah, what they said-
i usually have plenty to say but i totaly agree with the above people.
man, i have to be quicker next time... :)
oh, i didn't see pepermints comment--
-- exactly- what she said---
He had a lot to say about not judging others. For example: "Don't try to take the speck out of your brother's eye. Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, then you can see to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
And of course: "Whoever has never sinned, cast the first stone."
He had a lot to say about the poor, charging interest on loans, materialism etc. but not much to say about sex. Money is a much bigger topic in the New Testament, really.
I think it's interesting that people who are supposed to be Christians focus on things like homosexuality and ignore the points about tolerance and social justice that he makes over and over again. Makes me wonder if we are reading the same book.
Time for a reweigh in here:
First of all, let it be clear that I have never read the New Testiment. Everything I know about Jesus has been through what I have head, or based upon personal experience from what others have told me. My own conclusions, as indicated, was that he was a remarkable, amazing human being, like a prophet or rabbi.
To hear the phrase, "love thy neighbor as thy-self" to me emphasises the power of love, tolerance and choice, no matter where they may lead you.
That being said, I find it rather puzzling that what I hear from many
right wing conservatives who seem to tolerate little, turn the other cheek, or as kate points out, cast the first stone.
We can agree to disagree, and I truly want to hear from everyone regarding this subject, as it will be a form of education and enlightment for me as well.
Thank you all for being so civil and kind in your posts.
Well. I don't know my exact thoughts about homosexuals. I know that it is wrong but it is also a very difficult life-style to break out of. Even Christians have struggled with homosexual thoughts or feelings in the past. I don't think that it's different from lying or cheating. And Jesus still loved the liars and the cheaters and the people who were possessed. I think He wanted to love them into a relationship with Him, not just preach them down. I think that that's why so many people changed their lifestyle after meeting him. That being said, my older brother and sister are bisexual, and I was also starting to have feelings for those of the same sex when I was younger. And it was something that I really had to pray through. So I think that there are real feelings involved and a real challenge to get through. But I know that God has much better plans for our lives! He pulled me out of that train of thought, but it's still a sensitive topic...
Anonymous,
I thank you for your most impassioned and candid post.
If you come back here, I have a couple of questions, please. You say that homosexuality is wrong. What do you mean by that statement and why do you find it 'wrong.'
Thank you again for your thoughts.
From what I know of Jesus (and we only know what others have written about him many years after his death), he espoused a policy of tolerance and forgiveness. He tried to help prostitutes, beggars, thieves, etc...all people who would have been considered "sinners" at the time. So I believe his attitude toward homosexuality would have been similar.
I should add that I believe Jesus would have thought homosexual behavior itself -- that is, consummated homosexuality -- was a sin. But then, he would have thought that about any type of fornication or sexual activity outside of marriage, straight or homosexual. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not Jewish, but I believe Judaism in ancient times did profess fornication to be a sin.
In short, I think Jesus would have been fine with people being attracted to members of the opposite sex as long as they did not act on those desires in a physical way. He did say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I do not know how he would have felt about gay marriage. I think that might have been an idea too radical for even a rabble-rouser like Jesus! But I also think that issue would not have arisen at the time; given the social and cultural values of the ancient world, any homosexuality must have been far, far in the closet.
Thank you for the thought provoking question, B.
Good to see you, Sue, and thank you for such insightful and informative comments.
I think your distinction between tolerance and accepted behavior is a good way. Actually there is a passage in the Bilbe (O.T.) that says, 'man shall not lie with another man.' It says nothing about women lying with each other however. An entire book by Rabbi Stephen Greenberg, and Orthodox gay rabbi, called:Wrestling With God and Men: Homosexuality in the Jewish Community. I have purused it, but there are many references to the Bible and other discussions on the issue from a biblical, as opposed to social perspective.
I like the way you described Jesus as a rable rouser! Unique description.
Thanks again, Sue, for stopping by here. Hope you and your family are well.
All best,
b
I believe Jesus to be much more than a prophet; he is the Son of God. He came to take away the sins of the world. He is the only way to forgiveness. Like others have said, he is a man filled with love (he is love), and compassion. And since he is the only way, there can be no other way (he said this himself - even if you believe him to be "just a prophet"--his words would still have credibility..everything I mentioned he said himself).
I am saying this so that everyone reading this has an idea of the perspective I am coming from.
(small rabbit trail from the actual topic): In the subtle commentary so far on the difference between action and thought, I find myself in slight disagreeance with what's been said.
Suburbansue stated, "In short, I think Jesus would have been fine with people being attracted to members of the opposite sex as long as they did not act on those desires in a physical way." Where do you find evidence for this in the Bible? (I am asking for Biblical evidence because Jesus' life and teachings are clearly outlined in the Book.I am not asking for Biblical evidence to downplay the importance of society). As far as I have read, thought and action are inseperably intertwined. One small example of this would be in Matthew 15:19 which says, "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander." (said by Jesus). Here we see a clear example of the "lines" between thought and action being fuzzed as all things mentioned in that list cross between both territories.
Am I missing something?
Off the slight rabbit trail, back to the topic at hand...There are those who will for the rest of their lives believe that homosexuality is not wrong, that it is not a choice, that it is something to be mainstreamed into our culture; there are also those who will for the rest of their lives believe that homosexuality is not right, that it is a choice, and that it is something that should be fed out of society.
While I do not agree that being gay is the same as having blue eyes, I also do not agree that those who have chosen this lifestyle should be judged by those who disagree with it. However, I also do not believe that simply because I do not (or whoever does not) believe that homosexuality is right, that I should be judged according to that.
If my sister (I have a few of them!) decides to have sex before she is married -- I still love her incredibly; do I agree with sex before marriage? Nope. Do I love her any less? No way! I do not love what she is doing.
Perhaps the whole "love the sinner hate the sin" cliche has been skewed or overused, but I still believe that it is true.
God loves me, I believe that with all my heart. I do not, however, believe that he loves when I disobey what I know is right. There *is* a distinction to be made between a person and their thoughts/actions/lifestyle. All of those things are things we choose (unless, of course, you believe that homosexuality is not a choice, then my entire last sentences will be disregarded; I am ok with that).
God loves the things he created (you, me, humans, etc). I do not believe, however, that he loves what they do all the time.
More importantly (and I am speaking to myself here, on more than just this issue), perhaps it is most important to stop looking into our own feeble minds and society/culture/context-driven belief system and look 'upwards' (figuratively).
Life is not about me.
Life is not about you.
There is more than this.
A friend recently pointed me to a (paraphrase) of something C.S. Lewis said:
"If you are always looking down on everyone and everything, you lose sight of He who is above you"
(wow, I just realized how wordy I am...oops!)
Another time to weigh in and comment: SUB-TOPIC OF THIS TOPIC if you will.
I appreciate all of the comments, and see that many have given both Biblical as well as non-biblical comments. Thank you to everyone.
As a practicing Jew, I do not accept Jesus as the son of God, but as a prophet, more of a Rabbi or teacher, but admire everything I have read about him as a man.
What I am gathering from this post is that Jesus was indeed an incredibly warm, accepting human being, tolerant of man, rejecting of few. So here is my question. How do men, such as George Bush who proclaim Jesus to be his most favorite individual and all of these right wing conservatives, who call themselves Christan consistently practice what I call a culture of intolerance? This method of thinking extends to everything, including women's right to chose, sexuality and its orientation, stem cell research, and issues on the war in Iraq. Consequently, I see a bullying mentality emerge, which basically says, 'my way or no way.' This seems to be in direct contridiction to what I have read about Jesus everyone and in these comments.
How do you reconcile these issues and is it truly the case that the religious right are expounding true Christian values?
Thank you for your minds?
Barbara, your site is so interesting I have to pick and choose what to respond to otherwise I'd never get anything else done!
I find this topic so intriguing because I've known gay people up close and personal and I can assure you, there is no choice involved, just like there is no choice for heterosexual folks to be attracted to persons of the opposite sex. I mean...how would a heterosexual feel if pressured to engage in homosexual relationships? Unnatural, eh? Shudderingly repulsive, eh? There's the same drive with homosexual individuals - it's chemical, it's biological, they are unique, and yes, they are the way they are just as if they had blue eyes versus brown.
The sad thing is that the Bible from what I'm reading doesn't permit fornication and yet, the Christian right in our country refuses to grant gay persons the sanctity of legal marriage, thereby keeping gay sexual relations in the category of fornicating. Well...if they don't like it, then let them enter God's safety zone and stop the fornicating! An obvious solution, a pro-family solution, except no dice - the right insists on continuing their "only the right kind of family" legislation.
Really when you think about it Jesus only got mad at hypocrits.
the value system of his time clearly said that it was wrong so much so that there was no need for him to say anything about it. Just like there was no need to say anything about it in the consitution of the United States.
The Torah clearly said that a man should not sleep with a man like he sleeps with a woman.
The traditional jewish view point on this is that the homosexual sex act is wrong. Jews view the act as the sin not the thought.
Actually, Yocuahan is right: there is a passage in the Bible that says, man shall not law with another man. I have quoted it above. There is an amzing book written by an Orthodox gay rabbi, Called: WRESTLING WITH GOD & MEN: HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, by Stephen Greenberg. This Rabbi takes biblical sections and illustrates exactly how this can be read to embrace homosexuality rather than reject it from a biblical point of view. I have not read the entire book, but know it can be ordered at Amazon.com for those intrested.
A final note. I do not claim to be a Biblical scholar. I just find it rather fascinating that Bush and the right wing conservatives claim to be 'good Christians' and embrace Jesus as their role model, on the one hand, yet disapprove and are so unaccepting and intolerant of so many individuals and issues on the other who are.
Confirmation bias is indeed rampid in today's society, godless mom.
If Jesus was only a prophet i.e. a mortal man, then HIS opinions on homosexuality are irrelevant.
Hi Barbara,
I saw your post over on Slice of Laodicea and decided to visit your site.
For the record, I am a born again Christian.
Where do you get the idea that Jesus was “tolerant” toward sin. It is not found in Scripture. Now I had the same sort of ideas as you ,before I was saved, but they were my own wrong ideas, not those of Jesus Christ.
Now, Jesus was and is most certainly extremely compassionate and patient toward sinners, “…but is longsuffering toward us not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)
That is God’s disposition towards sin and sinners (whether in the OT or NT), in a nutshell. He commands that all repent, and desires that they all do repent and be saved, but will judge those who despise His grace and refuse to repent.
Jesus ate with sinners, but He was at the same time calling them to repentance, not approving of their sin.
It is a myth that Jesus never spoke against homosexuality. He condemned fornication (or sexual immorality). The Greek word, He used, was “porneia” which means any type of illicit sexual activity, including adultery, sex outside of marriage, homosexual sex, bestiality, etc.
17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man." – Matthew 15:17-20
Now, he never specifically separated homosexuality from other forms of sexual immorality, probably for two reasons.
1) Jesus preached mainly to the Jews, who knew very well from the Old Testament that homosexual sex was an abomination before God. It simply wasn’t an issue, every 1st Century Jew knew it was a sin. The Apostle Paul preached mainly to Gentiles, in culture where sodomy was much more common and had more acceptance, so he more specifically mentioned it.
2) All sexual immorality is sin. When Paul writes against homosexuality, he usually lists it right next to other types of sin. I do think some Christians tend to overemphasize homosexual sex as if it were “the sin”, while perhaps under emphasizing other sins, including adultery and heterosexual fornication. This is wrong and unscriptural. All sin should be preached against, not just the least socially acceptable ones.
As for Jesus as a politician, He would never be one. He will come again some day to rule and reign, but He was anything but a politician.
Our commission as Christians is not to “Christianize” and superficially clean up sinners and the world. Our mission is to preach the Gospel to them so and point them to Christ so that they can be saved OUT of the world and from their sins.
A quickly growing heresy in the church is “Dominion Theology” also know as “Kingdom Now”. It basically teaches that Christians will through gaining political power, will subdue the world for Christ. This is the opposite of what Scripture teaches. I believe much of the so called “Christian Right” is heavily influenced by it, and it is dangerous.
BTW, I must add that the idea of Jesus being a great man and prophet, but not the Son of God is not possible. If you read the claims He made in the Gospels, it is clear as the old saying goes, He was either a "liar, lunatic, or the Lord of all". I am 100% certain he is the third.
God Bless You,
John
John,
Thank you for visiting my blog and for your blessings. As a person of deep faith, I appreciate being blessed as often as possible.
As mentioned in previous posts, I am a practicing Jew and do not accept Jesus to be the son of God. That does not mean that I do not admire his teachings, deeds and other acts towards others. Furthermore, I believe that good deeds towards others are one of the great and highest acts that an individual can do in her/his lifetime.
Now the issue you raise about sin:
First of all, since nothing was written down by Jesus himself, i.e. what he might have said and done, we all can speculate. But I will focus on what you have defined as a sin and weigh in on this as well.
First of all, there are many sins, according to the OT, hypocracy being at the top of the list. Let us not ignore pedophilla and sex with young boys, as well as and abuse of power by the Church either in the name of Christ. Lying is also considered a sin, from what I understand. For instance, the fact that Catholic preists do not marry is due to a papal edic to save property for the church and not to pass it down to heirs nor for the church. Do you find this concept to be one of greed, thereby sinful in any way.
To my understanding, the NT has many versions and interpretations, and I ask which one was the correct version? Since Jesus was a Jew, it seems likely that he would have preached for a direct relationship with God, and for individuals to followt their moral conscious rather than the dictates of ambitous church leadership.
Your point is well taken about Dominion theology. This is an extrapolation of the earthly ambitions of many rather than the spiritual desires of the few. This can indeed be dangerous.
Actually, believers in Christ are the majority of people in the world. Therefore, three-quarters of the world will sadly, according to your interpretation, not be saved regardless of how just a life they life. I, for one, am among them. I commend you for having your own personal relationship with Christ and any way you see God.
Blessings to you.
typo: replace 'majority' with 'minority' in the last paragraph.
Despite the fact that this conversation might be long over, I'd like to leave one more comment.
Barbara, sometimes there is a huge disconnect between what Christians say and what they live. Some of us try hard, but sometimes we get it very wrong.
The "American Right" does not speak for me. I do not put Bush on the same level of Jesus. Call me crazy.
So for the times we get it wrong while attempting to work it all out, can I say... I'm sorry.
Barbara,
I agree that there are many other sins that must be dealt with. As I mentioned in my original response, the sin of homosexuality should not be singled out for special condemnation, but at the same time it should not be ignored or deemed holy. Biblical Christianity preaches against all sin, and lovingly calls all sinners to repentance and salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.
I love homosexuals (my brother is one) and want to see them saved. My closest Christian friend was delivered from homosexuality by Jesus Christ.
I certainly agree with you about the hypocrisy, pedophilia and lying and greed of the Roman Catholic Church. (not to mention the Idolatry, false teachings, and historic persecution of Jews, Bible Believing Christians and others). IMO, the RCC is and always has been one of the most corrupt organizations in the world.
I was raised a Roman Catholic and grew up thinking I was a “Christian”. But, I was no Christian. I was practicing a false religion that mixed some of Christianity, with paganism and “Catholic Tradition”.
In my view, to hold Christianity responsible for the abominations of the Roman Catholic Church would not be too far off from blaming Judaism for the abominations committed by Islamists. Much like Islam is a largely a perverted version of Judaism (as well of some elements of Christianity), Roman Catholicism is a perverted version of Biblical Christianity. Being raised a Catholic, I love the Catholic people and desire that they be saved and “come out of her” as the Lord calls them to in Revelation 18:4.
That is not to say that what passes today for “Evangelical Christianity” is in very good shape either. It is being overrun by all types of false teachings, Dominionism, Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel, “Seeker Friendly/Purpose Driven, and others. (But that is a whole other subject.) Of course, Peter, Paul, John and the Lord Jesus Christ all foretold the apostasy that would come to the Church, so it should be no surprise to a Bible believing Christian.
As for NT versions, while there are some utterly fraudulent translations and paraphrases out there, all of the major translations are nearly identical. There are a handful of textual variants, but if you read the KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, and almost any other major version, you will end up exactly the same doctrine.
As for interpretations, there are some debatable issues of doctrine, but the fundamentals of the faith are all very clearly presented in the Scriptures. Anyone deviating from them is either not reading the Scripture or not reading it honestly.
On all major issues of doctrine, what the NT says is really not in question, it is whether we are willing to accept what it says.
As for the majority not being saved, sadly that is what the Bible clearly appears to teach. These are the words of Jesus:
13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. – Matthew 7:13-14
Men’s hearts are so hard and so given to rebellion against God, that most will not heed His gracious call to repentance, forgiveness and everlasting life. My prayer is that you will be one of the ones who enters through that narrow gate.
God Bless You,
John
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