Terri Schiavo and the Autopsy Findings
Who among us can forget the sad case of Terri Shiavo, and the tug of war that transpired between her parents and her husband, and ultimately this country on the issue regarding her medical condition and her public death. There were constant tears, one court battle after another, and Mr. Bush signed a special law meant to help Shiavo's parent's keep her alive. Jeb Bush, after countless efforts, conceded that intervention was even beyond his power.
Yesterday, the autopsy reports were released. After a through examination, it was concluded that no treatment could have reversed Ms. Shaivo's persistent vegatative state in the final days, despite claims to the contrary. The size of her brain, at death, was reported to be about half that of a normal sized brain, and it was concluded that it was unable to process any memory, sight or movement. These results were all contrary to statements made by conservative Republicans that Ms. Schiavo could respond to people and was processing information. Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader, who is a doctor, did not ever examine Schiavo, but led this country to believe that she could in fact respond to those around her, and was not in a vegetative state. As you can see from yesterday's autopsy results, he was clearly wrong.
This tragic and sad case has passed, but a re-current pattern seems to be emerging with the Bush administration, once all of the actual facts are examined. What is clear in this case is that the conservatives were proven wrong by the actual facts.These individuals seem to base many of their conclusions on facts that turn out not to be true. In fact, most of them are flat out lies. They assume that by the time the actual truth surfaces, no one will care anymore about their lies. Furthermore, the spin will be that there was confusion, misstatement and misrepresentation, and the ball will be thrown into the other court to play catch, and those telling the truth will appear as if they are being insensitive, un-patriotic, or cruel.
Here is the question of the day: How do you feel today knowing that the autopsy findings were contrary to what was represented by many conservatives in this country about Ms. Shiavo and her medical condition? What lessons have we learned now that these findings are available?Why is the Bush administration able to get away with this culture of deception that they have created around so many important issues in our country? Do you feel that something must be done to put an end to this pattern of misrepresentation? Why do people in the country continue to support someone, and believe in information that turns out to be untrue? What values does this teach about honesty and proper role models to our children? What, if anything, in your opinion should be done?
Thank you for your minds.
Yesterday, the autopsy reports were released. After a through examination, it was concluded that no treatment could have reversed Ms. Shaivo's persistent vegatative state in the final days, despite claims to the contrary. The size of her brain, at death, was reported to be about half that of a normal sized brain, and it was concluded that it was unable to process any memory, sight or movement. These results were all contrary to statements made by conservative Republicans that Ms. Schiavo could respond to people and was processing information. Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader, who is a doctor, did not ever examine Schiavo, but led this country to believe that she could in fact respond to those around her, and was not in a vegetative state. As you can see from yesterday's autopsy results, he was clearly wrong.
This tragic and sad case has passed, but a re-current pattern seems to be emerging with the Bush administration, once all of the actual facts are examined. What is clear in this case is that the conservatives were proven wrong by the actual facts.These individuals seem to base many of their conclusions on facts that turn out not to be true. In fact, most of them are flat out lies. They assume that by the time the actual truth surfaces, no one will care anymore about their lies. Furthermore, the spin will be that there was confusion, misstatement and misrepresentation, and the ball will be thrown into the other court to play catch, and those telling the truth will appear as if they are being insensitive, un-patriotic, or cruel.
Here is the question of the day: How do you feel today knowing that the autopsy findings were contrary to what was represented by many conservatives in this country about Ms. Shiavo and her medical condition? What lessons have we learned now that these findings are available?Why is the Bush administration able to get away with this culture of deception that they have created around so many important issues in our country? Do you feel that something must be done to put an end to this pattern of misrepresentation? Why do people in the country continue to support someone, and believe in information that turns out to be untrue? What values does this teach about honesty and proper role models to our children? What, if anything, in your opinion should be done?
Thank you for your minds.
40 Comments:
I think the Bush administration has been full of shit since he was elected into office. He's done a good job of deceiving the republicans in this nation, and I for one am glad I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM! The problems of a family should be left to be dealt with by the family and government should NEVER intrude into something that is really none of their business. Actually, it's a bit scary because it starts off as something small, and before you know the government can be controlling everything you do. My family escaped a country like that, and I hope all the problems and losses they suffered were not for nothing.
How do you feel today knowing that the autopsy findings were contrary to what was represented by many conservatives in this country about Ms. Shiavo and her medical condition?
I wasn't surprise in the least.
Why is the Bush administration able to get away with this culture of deception that they have created around so many important issues in our country?
Because the President of the US (the office not the persyn) is above the Rule of Law, apparently.
Do you feel that something must be done to put an end to this pattern of misrepresentation?
Hold our leaders responable for their transactions.
Why do people in the country continue to support someone, and believe in information that turns out to be untrue?
For the same reason we believe in God, Allah, Chirst, Bridgid, etc. Faith, I would suppose.
What values does this teach about honesty and proper role models to our children?
If we point to out their lies and mis-deeds to our children, these leaders give us execellent examples of how the powerful and rich think their above the law and better than the rest of us.
What, if anything, in your opinion should be done?
I think the Schindlers need to go to grief counciling so they can move out of denial--where they have resided since Terri's MI. I also think they need to re-imburse the courts for all the time and money resouces they sucked up. Politicians who got their fingers dirty with this "cause" should apologize for thier bully tactics and should not seek re-election.
I'm most saddened that even with the test results in front of them, these people still stick to "their truth".
Hopefully more people will educate themselves and their friends about writing out living wills (which, I'm told by a nurse, are more complicated than you would think).
Why do you need scientific facts when you've got the Bible and when you've got evangelical Christians blindly following you, believing that you can do no wrong because you are Christian? I am not surprised at all.
My goodness, so many questions and no easy answers!
The fact that the government tried to stand in the middle of a very personal family conflict and tried to overturn the decisions made by Terry's husband is wrong on so many levels that I can't possibly begin to list all of my objections.
It seems that in this country right now, as long as you claim to be on the side of righteousness you can get away with anything.
Absolutely I think something should be done to curb the deception and to draw attention to long list of lies. Unfortunately I am not smart enough to even begin to understand how such a thing could be accomplished. People have a tendency to believe the first information they hear and then disregard or completely miss any contradictory information that may come along later. Rove and his buddies know this and take full advantage of it.
The only thing I can think of which might result in the downfall of this type of deception and righteous grandstanding is constant pressure from the masses. Eventually people will understand that undermining our personal rights and our Constitution will result in the downfall of everthing we love about our country.
I wasn't surprised at all by the findings, but my opinion hasn't changed from what I originally thought: that a mother was denied what she thought was right for her daughter. I was really bothered by a husband who had essentially remarried, created a new family, who fought so hard against his former mother-in-law. As a mother, I was bothered by the transfer of custody, by the dismissal of the parent-child relationship. As a note, I'm well aware of the husband's devotion to Terry Schiavo and do not feel he was a bad guy in any way. I simply mourned the importance of the mother and wondered if the case reflected how American society continues to devalue women.
How do you feel today knowing that the autopsy findings were contrary to what was represented by many conservatives in this country about Ms. Shiavo and her medical condition?
I feel about the same now as when it was happening- that the machine behind both Bush presidencies and the war on Clinton years is operating on high alert and will look for any issue or news item to use to further their agenda. I believe Mr. Rove and Co. are all about cementing their grip on power in this country, because they believe their ideas are right. And I think it is wrong to say that "they could have cared less about Terri and her family." I believe the evangelicals do care. The leadership of the groups leading them could be thought of as caring too much perhaps.
Why is the Bush administration able to get away with this culture of deception that they have created around so many important issues in our country?
I seem to remember reading in a high school social studies class Machievelli's book The Prince. Didn't it state that if a lie is told again and again, with conviction from those in authority, it will be accepted as truth eventually. This was used to explain how Hitler was able to convince the German public that Jews were the problem. So now GOP operatives speak with one voice, stick to talking points developed and distributed by the machine and it is picked up by the masses. I blogged on this yesterday.
What values does this teach about honesty and proper role models to our children?
Most of those opposing the removal of the feeding tube thought there was the possibility of recovery. I think it is a good thing to speak out in support of life and that is a value we need to encourage in children. Regarding honesty and role models, the opportunity now exists to help our young adults learn to examine the motives behind someone who wants to be a role model and also to question (not necessarily confront- they are different) authority.
"Meegan said...
Why do you need scientific facts when you've got the Bible and when you've got evangelical Christians blindly following you, believing that you can do no wrong because you are Christian? I am not surprised at all"
On the flip side, why do you need faith if you've got scientific fact? Maybe this, to some, is just as preposterous. I know of many Christians who do NOT, in fact, agree with anything Bush does. Let's not generalize. Is everyone that votes for bush a "Christian"?? No. I can say that just by statistical probability.
Anyone who saw the videos of Terri with her family could not argue that there was some kind of response on her end towards the people she cared about. Did this mean her brain was able to be "fixed" (as it were)? No, which was proven by the autopsy.
I am not trying to justify anything the Bush administration said, or which truths were stretched. But is it not *also* a stretch to say that she didn't even deserve a chance at recovery? It was anyones guess, while she was alive, what the capacity of her brain was. Everyone (everyone) found out the truth after she died.
Furthermore, it should probably be said that "Christian" is more of a label now with a lot of people than an actual life decision. Those that "believe you can do no wrong because you are a Christian" are ignorant, and have obviously not read up on their faith!! If that is a generalization on the part of non-Christians (which, don't get me wrong, is probably justified in some cases!), then it should be searched out in the lives of those who actually *are* followers of Christ, but keep in mind is NOT true for every person that has devoted their lives to Christ.
I am a Christian....I hope that it's more than a label. Honestly, I do not personally know a lot of Christians for whom Christianity IS just a label (and I know a lot...really!). There are those out there who truly do their best to honor God's name with their lives. Yes, we struggle. Being a Christian does not make you a super-human. It doesn't make life "bump free"...it just means that there is a purpose at the end of all those bumps, there is someone there with you through it all, and as I believe, is the sole purpose and desire of every human: to know God better each day.
Mormons, Buddhists, Muslims, JW's, Free Masons, New Agers, etc all at least recieve some amount of respect for their belief system (as a whole I'm speaking)...but is there a Mormon, Buddhist, etc that has never done anyone else any kind of wrong ever, or any New Ager or JW that has always made super wise decisions? Probably not. The same is for Christians. All I am asking is that you please don't generalize or stereotype.
I live in Clearwater at the moment and I was stuck in the middle of this whole thing. The protests acually had an effect on my daily life. It was horrible. I was raised in Philly, where the family is from, and I've heard about this stupid argument since it began. I was not surprised. I think a person should live and die as they chose.
As for religion: No government has he right to make a law based on religion that citizens of othe faiths are forced to follow. We don't know that god exists, and the Bible is just a book.
I appreciate the points being made.
Kurtbooth talks about the book, The Prince, and how when you keep telling someone something over and over again, it becomes true. This does, in fact seem to be what is happening in our country today, sadly. Which is why I question the morals and standards of those who lead in our country today, and the values these individuals are supposed to teach our children.
we are lead to believe those in authority (well, most of us were probably brought up that way) ... and in general, people follow those who lead. but we elect those in authority ... it seems all we can do is hope and pray they're somewhat honest. it ended up with our governor being sent to prison ... don't think that will happen to this president, but seems like it should at times. i think a government that seemed to fight so hard to put martha stewart in jail would think a little before doing what they do themselves. does this all seem surreal to everyone else? i'd like to know if anyone really voted for bush (no one i've ever met has admitted to this). there is a new thing in the news today about the fbi wanting to look at library records (to see what terrorists are reading) ... what ??? (what's next???)
i guess i didn't actually answer the question at hand (sorry, bad habit of mine). i think the government overstepped itself with terry schiavo. there are so many other people in this country that no one is doing anything for. the government went for the emotional aspect ... and i'm not sure it was for terry's sake or for the fact of getting future votes.
1.) How do you feel today knowing that the autopsy findings were contrary to what was represented by many conservatives in this country about Ms. Shiavo and her medical condition?
I feel that most things conservatives say are incorrect and self serving.
2)What lessons have we learned now that these findings are available?
Stick to the facts and leave out the emotions!
3)Why is the Bush administration able to get away with this culture of deception that they have created around so many important issues in our country?
Because some people are die hard conservatives and will believe whatever he says. They don't listen to reason, and cannot distinguish truth from fiction. They mistake patriotism for blind obedience.
4) Do you feel that something must be done to put an end to this pattern of misrepresentation?
Yes, of course. The citizens/ tax payers are entitled to the truth!
5)Why do people in the country continue to support someone, and believe in information that turns out to be untrue?
Because they are so afraid of ADMITTING they are wrong! How many conservatives do you know that will turn around to a liberal and say 'hey, you were right and I was wrong'.
6)What values does this teach about honesty and proper role models to our children?
It's a lousy role model. It teaches people to believe that the emperor (GWB) is wearing new clothes even though he ( and Cheney) are naked! It teaches people to follow blindly even if your heart tells you it is wrong. It teaches you to believe whatever a dictator tells you to believe.
7) What, if anything, in your opinion should be done?
Every President must be held accountable for the mistakes they make. These mistakes have caused suffering and misery and death to thousands of citizens and foreigners. Why does GWB think he must be the world policeman?
Since when do republicans seeking to suck up to the holy rolling evangelical right need facts?
To them, the issue was all about "life", which is suck-up-to-the-evangelicals speak for abortion. And Jeb is CLEARLY trying to position himself to capture the holy vote in 2006, even if he claims he is not. I do not thnk that a single suck-up politicians cared at all about Terri. All they cared about was votes.
And as for the man starting a new family, lets not forget that he did not do that the day after Terri became a tomato. It was several years later. He did seek treatment, he went to Shands Hospital at The University Of Florida so many times that the doctors told him not to come back - they had done all they could. He even allowed experimental "brain stimulation" thingies to be implanted for a year.
And the bonds of marriage, according to the rollers, are supposed to be rock solid. But in this case, they wanted to ignore them totally. When two people get married, each family gives up a child and a new family is created. This is why the father "gives away" the bride as part of the ceremony.
EVERYTHING the husband was saying about Terri's state was true. Everything the rollers were saying turned out to be bullschmidt.
But this is not over. In 2006, it will gain whoever wins the republican primary big votes. All those red(neck) thumper states will turn out, in droves, to cast the holy vote to protect "life". But only life in the USA - life outside the USA is fair game for carpet bombing.
I say shame on Dr. Frist! SHAME! As for the Bush brothers, they aren't medical doctors. (They ARE morons)... So I don't blame they're stupidity.
But Frist is a physician and should have known better!
SHAME on him! SHAME!
I believe the truth always comes out in the end and I think our leaders more than ever need to be responsible for their actions.
We as a society need to seek out the facts and refuse to be manipulated by our leaders.
Agree (as usual) with Atreau. But I also want to state that I have never in my life taken anything stated by any politician to be factual. The role of a politician is "to influence by persuasion." They are self serving by definition.
I feel the same way about the Michael Jackson case, with so many people "disagreeing" with the verdict. What are they basing their opinions on, journalism? Surely all these people didn't sit on the jury for months, evaluating evidence?
Journalists sell papers, and politicians sell themselves. One would hope journalists were charged with the who/what/where/when/and possibly why (or informed analysis) of events as they unfold. But our culture being driven by capitalism precludes the need for truth in telling.
There is more value to persuasion, by media or politician; and both rarely seem to pick the high road. For me, what is believable, is empirical evidence. If I witness it in an unedited version on television, I will feel that I have an informed opinion. Otherwise I am as manipulated as the next movie-goer/voter/newspaper reader.
About Dr. Frist: He really did put himself on the line, H.C. He concluded, publically, without ever examining Mrs. Shiavo that she was responsive and not truly in a vegative state. Today, he went on T.V. and said it was time to move on. Can you imagine him telling Howard Dean, Mr. Clinton or Mr. Kerry to spring forward and forget?
Barbara: He said it was time to move on? HA HA!! I find this hilarious. Sounds an awful lot like what White House press secretary Scott McClellan said today about the Downing Street memo and the Democrats' request that Bush explain it. He said, "This is simply rehashing old debates that have already been discussed."
As I recall, the Republicans had no problem "rehashing" the Lewinsky scandal. This hypocrisy is really starting to get to me.
Meegen,
Yes those were his exact words, I kid you not!
I am happy to have this blog to rant about these issues. There are just too many improprieties surfacing lately. The real issue is what, if anything can be done?
At the risk of being ridiculed, I will offer a counter view. But first I would ask Barbara to cite where and when Dr. Frist offered a diagnosis in the case.
I'm neither a republican nor a democrat. I do not agree with 90% of what the Bush administration does. But this case was not a republican vs. democrat issue. This wasn't neo-cons vs. liberals. Far from it. Tom Harkin, D-IA, sponsored the senate version of the legislation to intervene. The Reverend Jesse Jackson, hardly a right-winger, also called for government intervention.
The central point in this case, contrary to those who would now have you belive otherwise, was not whether Terri was in what doctors call PVS. The question was whether she would have wanted to end her life under such circumstances and what kind of evidence and process the courts used to make a finding of such import.
FL law requires that courts use the "clear and convincing" standard when evaluating evidence to make such a finding. People in this case argued that the evidence here was neither clear nor convincing. Aside from her husband's testimony that she told him she wouldn't want to live in such circumstances (something he recovered from memory after Terri was already in PVS for 7 years), not one person corroborated it. There were more than enough unanswered questions that put his testimony in doubt.
Additionally, some people argued that as a constituiotnal matter, Terri had the right to a higher standard of due process, evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. I personally believe that people have the right to end their life. I support assisted suicide laws. However, I also believe that when the government takes a person's life it must afford the subject due process rights as outlined in the 14th amendment to the constitution. I believe that any standard less than evidence beyond a reasonable doubt is inconsistent with the rights afforded to each of us in the constitution. It is for this reason that I agreed with the intervention efforts. I could not see the government (yes, the courts are the third branch of government) take the life of a citizen without affording her due process rights
To answer your question about the comments of Dr. Frist, I refer to to Good Morning America where he was interviewed this morning. In that show, Charlie Gibbons, told him that he had a clip where Dr. Frist stated that Ms. Schiavo was able to communicate with others (contrary to the facts) and that she may not be in a persistive vegatative state. If you want more information go to www.abc.com and look under Good Morning America.
What niobium said.
Well-said AshKash -- to even post on a "Bush-related topic" as a Christian is an invitation to be lambasted and castigated to a "waste land void of any kind of intellectual capacity." It seems as though there are some who immediately hear "conservative or Christian" and immediately tune out any input. That is not EVERYONE...and that is not EVERY POST...but I can say it has felt like the prevailing winds of late.
In reference to "Kurtbooth talks about the book, The Prince, and how when you keep telling someone something over and over again, it becomes true." I have to say that the constant mantra about what a "liar, deceiver, loser" that Bush is certainly fits that bill. If you say it and hear it and repeat it over and over and over again enough...then there is no room for any discussion or counterpoint or consideration of a different point of view. And that's fine, but don't paint the conservative side as being unpersuasive when there are many posting on this site who are equally unpersuasive, but coming from the opposite point of view.
Lies, deception, misrepresentation, etc. I thought you were talking about the Clintons.
Barbara: Hope you and your hubby had a great day yesterday!
Whit and ash kash bring up another good point and I think it is worthwhile to comment.
Something I have actually been taught here in blogsville, is that not all Christians are right wing conservatives, and Mr. Bush is not necessarily representative of Christian values. (nor all Republican values, for that matter)
I have read the comments of many Christian people who are offended by the lies and deceptions of some people who compose the Bush administration.
Thank you for pointing this out, both Ash kash and Whit
Have missed talking with you Barb -- we'll have to figure out how to catch up offline. Hope your anniversary was spectacular!
"thc said... Lies, deception, misrepresentation, etc. I thought you were talking about the Clintons."
dearest fellow Kansan: But the Clintons are so yesterday. We are looking at Bush now. And aren't these offenses just as impeachable now -- for Bush -- as they were for Clinton?
I'll start by saying that I'm not a fan of GW Bush.
But you have to realize that no one knew the autopsy results in advance. For instance, you must remember they didn't know she was blind. And hindsight is always 20/20.
So, the question still remains: when you have a catscan that shows that someone has most of their brain missing, but are receiving food and water via tubes, at what point do you make the decision to remove the tubes?
As I was discussing with a dear friend who is a prominent scientist, isn't it interesting that only in our generation has the need for bio-ethicists been discovered?
We never faced these kind of issues before, because medical science was never this advanced.
Now we have to try to identify the difference between aiding the living, and creating the living dead.
I'm with Anonymous of 3:22 PM.
As to Bush's behaviour... Dr. Phil puts it so well "It must be working for ya'". Y/our elected representatives do what they do because it works. It must. You/we keep electing them.
I find Terry's later life and death sad for a whole other reason. I understand that she suffered the heart attack (which ultimately led to to her later condition) because of complications from a severe eating disorder. As awful as this is going to sound, I hope that she didn't have brain functions for those years in hospital. I can't imagine anything more tortuous for someone with an untreated eating disorder than to live with a total lack of control over what your body is being fed.
While I don't believe in assisted suicide or euthanasia, I have compassion for a husband who lived through his wife's eating disorder.
Barbara: You're trying to suggest that the Bush administration lied or was deceptive re: the Schiavo case. Could you please clarify?
thc:
What I am saying is that this administration has been consistent in presenting issues and claiming to have facts about something, when in reality, it turns out to be false. There has been a pattern of deception.
So, you start out writing about the Schiavo case and turn it into a rant about the Bush administration, two things that have little to do with one another? Oh well. It's your blog.
thc,
Actually Bush DID get involved, and made an attempt to pass legislation for this one individual family, ignoring the rulings of the court. Moreover, Jeb Bush made an attempt to exert his powers as governor, ultimately being told that he could not act outside his powers. So one, has something to do with the other, in my humble opinon.
Scott,
Should criminals be afforded more rights than innocent citizens? Why shouldn't there be federal review in every case where a state court concluded that a US citizen should lose his/her life?
Barbara,
The autopsy report also discredited Terri's court- appointed doctors in that it stated flat out that she did not suffer a heart attack on that fateful 1990 night. Why did she collapse?
Scott,
You didn't understand, or I wasn't clear enough. Indeed, Terri was treated worse than criminals. In criminal proceedings, there's ALWAYS federal review. It's called Habeas. In death row proceedings, the FEDERAL courts are charged with reviewing whether the constitutional process was followed to the letter at the state level. I know this standard does not exist in civil matters, but why not? Why do we afford criminals more rights than we afford innocent citizens?
By the way, the killing of a citizen is NOT a "day to day affair" of the state. US citizens have constitutional rights and the federal government is charged with protecting them.
Someone asked for solid proof about the statement made by Dr. Frist. His exact statement is made in the Washington Post, dated March 19, 2005, where he questions, based upon his viewing of video tapes whether she is in a persistent vegatative state.
Since when is questioning a diagnosis akin to offering one?
There is much interest in the Schiavo case here in the Philippines and I for one heaved a sigh of relief when the major news agencies came out with the autopsy findings, but then I came to this news item.
A balanced news item would at least have mentioned that a Nobel Prize nominee saw things differently and let the readers decide whom to believe. In the end, we'll never know what went on inside Terri Schiavo and Im sure we'll have more of cases like this in the future.
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