Women: Are we Thought of as first class citizens in some situations and not others?
Yesterday, there was an interesting bit of information that I heard while on the tred-mill. The topic of conversation dealt with women in combat. Basically, there was an issue as to whether this administration should allow women to fight and participate in combat duty. The conclusion reached was that yes, they should have this right to fight and in fact. to deny them this right would be to weaken an already slender and much needed class necessary for the function of the American military. When you look at Israel, both men and women recruited to combat duty.
Here is the question: How can this administration, believe that women be afforded equal rights in military situations, but deny them fundamental rights to make choices about their bodies, which include the right to an abortion, if that is what they chose and desire? Do you think this is an inconsistency in thinking or is it like mixing apples with oranges? How do you reconcile the two?
Let me thank everyone for the many comments you have posted on this blog, and thank you further for keeping your comments respectful.
Thank you for your minds.
Here is the question: How can this administration, believe that women be afforded equal rights in military situations, but deny them fundamental rights to make choices about their bodies, which include the right to an abortion, if that is what they chose and desire? Do you think this is an inconsistency in thinking or is it like mixing apples with oranges? How do you reconcile the two?
Let me thank everyone for the many comments you have posted on this blog, and thank you further for keeping your comments respectful.
Thank you for your minds.
22 Comments:
I do not believe the whole administration is against abortion. Furthermore, abortion is still legal in the United States, just not late term abortion. An abortion also includes another citizen-the baby. The government's job is to insure the rights of all citizens, even tiny babies incubating in the womb of someone else.
Having said that, I am strongly pro-choice, however I do see the other side of the coin in this instance.
My opinion--apples and oranges.
Barbara wrong on Israel women do serve in the Israeli army but they do not serve in direct combat roles. Unlike the Pasmarga in Kurdistan were women do join in the direct fighting.
Women are in the air force as piolets but early on the Israeli army found out that arabs would not surrender to women.
On abortion the traditional jewish view is that abortion is the lesser of two evils when a womens life is in danger or if she was raped. But abortion is totally unaceptable as a means of birth control which the vast majority of abortions are now adays.
Apparently, there is still some confusion about the thinkng process of the evangelical republican party.
1. Women can fight in combat because for the most part, war is profitable. War has always been about gaining something, be it gold, glory, or to make some diety happy. This war is not any different. Also, the bible has many passages where god says war is OK, so long as the people getting hacked up are of another religion.
2. Women can not choose what happens to their bodies because the bible says abortion is wrong. Killing babies is wrong, except for when the baby is another religion and you are at war - then it is OK.
All you have to do to figure out what is right or wrong (if you are an evangelical right winger) is consult the bible. But you can not read it for yourself! Oh no! You have to have an evangelical right wing preacher TELL YOU what the bible says, then discuss it with others who think exactly the same as you. If you reach conclusions on you own, and these conclusions disagree with the fundie preacher - satan has confused you.
In other words, the thought process of the religous right wing is to not think at all. Just listen to Jerry Falwell - he has all the answers! Thinking = satan....listening and blindly following = salvation.
Maybe I should write a post about this one myself.
yochanan,
Thank you for the clarification. I was under the impression that women did serve in combat in Israel. I stand corrected.
As you can see not all Jews think alike, which in my opinon, is a good thing. Acceptance, tolerance and understanding of one another, without judgment and comdenmation, is what brings people together not apart.
My question, yochanan did not really deal with the issues of whether abortion is right or wrong. The focus is more on understanding whether issues about women in combat and issues about women and their bodies and reproductive choices surrounded them can be understood or explained on the same level.
Is it fair to restrict or limit reproductive choices and choices over their bodies, on the one hand, and on the other allow women to be treated equally in questions involving the military.
Perhaps this is not my best question, and I really am comparing appleas with oranges. I would, however, appreciate more opinions on the subject.
the lazy iguana,
Our posts crossed, but you have laid out the issue I am attempting to address beautifully, and I thank you for the clarification of it!
CURRENTY
If your have a teenaged girl if she has a cold or the flu you have to go to the doc to sign a concent form but if she wants an abortion she can do it with out her parents permision.
The Jewish tradition views a fetus a little bit differently than the church of rome, that being said it does not mean that Jews should be for the unquestioned use of abortion as birth control. Jews traditional value life an example being that the first mitvot mentioned in the Torah 'is to be fruitful and multiply' A fetus esp in the early stages of pregnacy is highly valued as potental life the closer to birth when it could servive on its own the more so. But if one had to make a "real" choice and not one of convience or $$$ matters the woman comes first were the church of rome holds that the baby because it not living in sin comes first.
The traditional view is that abortion as birth control is wrong in all cases. My biggest problem with the pro abortion crowd is they act like an abortion is like getting your apendix removed or even a hair cut. I accept the need for abortion in some cases in which the woman's life is threatened or she was raped. The rabbis have said that if the womans life is in danger she HAS TO HAVE THE ABORTION and they accept it in the case of rape because they are afraid that the woman would commit suicide as jewish women were offen raped during the many pogoams in european and arab countries.
Jonniker:
Thank you for your forthright and honest post.
I think you are right: these are two seperate and distinct issues.
My knee jerk reaction was that it is alirght for women to be given equal rights and status in one situation, but not in others concering choices regarding her body. But the Lazy Iguana (read his post) does make some very good points regarding this topic, I think.
Perhaps the two are differentiated because in combat it is the woman's own body that she is putting at risk, while abortion is the death of a child. Unborn or not, a baby is a baby.
Maybe that's why the distinction is made?
ToThe Lazy Iguana:
Not all Republicans are evangelical. Not all republicans listen to Jerry Fallwell. We do however love a good Nascar race every now and then. HA
I need to echo Jonna's thoughts on choosing an abortion ... and on judgements made about that decision. I believe it is never a decision taken lightly, whether the woman is conscious or unconscious of the inevitable repercussions of that heartrending choice. And it is so, so personal. No one, and especially not one's government, should be able to intervene in that painful decision.
I agree with jonniker also. There are many women who should have abortions. Women who are drug addicts who neglect and abuse their babies. Oh sure, in a perfect world they would give their babies up for adoption to all the couples out there longing for a child who would love the child blah blah blah. More often than not that is not what happens. The unhealthy, unstable parents or parent keeps the baby and neglects it or abuses it.
Trust me, if my choices were to be abused (physically, emotionally, etc), live a life of poverty and crime, have no self esteem throughout life which would lead me to more bad decisions---I would rather be aborted. End of story.
Did you give the baby the same choice?
And gov't payments for it mean we all end up supporting it even if we disagree.
Did I give what baby the same choice? You are assuming these people are on welfare?
I appreciate all the comments here, but this post was not to weigh in for or against abortion. That is a topic of its own, which I am sure would draw much attention.
But I do see my question being answered, actually. To compare women in the military with women's right to chose is truly like comparing apples and oranges.
I am sorry about the tangent.
Jonna,
Please, no need to every say you are sorry. Actually, I admire your candor and forthrightness in speaking up about an issue so personal and close to your heart, which many women do not speak about, as you say.
It just seemed to me that the discussion was getting away from the subject. If you did not feel attacked by anyone, then I feel as if the blog statements were approrpiate. I was looking over the comments and thinking about you, maybe underestimating your sense of courage and strengh.
I am sorry.
Apples and Oranges. I see no correlation in the two.
To whomever owns this blog...this might be your next blog topic??
Anyways, quickly (cuz I'm on a break at work!) :)
While there are those who rudely judge those who have abortions and classify them as they wish, I disagree with that. However, there are still two people involved, you and the baby....
Nestar---what baby? the baby that's growing in the woman's womb, that's what baby. Whether or not the abortion is justified by religion or personal morals or government, and regardless of the fact that no label should be put on the woman having one..please let's not all forget that a baby is a person, whether or not it's breathing air yet.
Euthanasia is the other side of the coin from abortion. Both devalue life. There is always a rationalization to support both. Traditional Jewish values frown upon both. We are taught to value life. And even the body we are in is thought to belong to god.
AshKash-
Please read my first post about this. I KNOW what baby. I was being rhetorical to Yochanan because he/she did not understand my point. I am the first person on this topic to say that there is a BABY.
Jonna,
Be mindful that there is no such thing truly as "the Jewish way." Yochanan is speaking about the Orthodox Jewish way, which is one version, and also open to interpretation. Other Jews, may few the matter a bit differently.
Considering we are only 13 million left, that is not to say much.
That being said, I think it is most important for each Jew to respect the other, as well as it is for Chirstians to be tolerant of other people's beliefs even if not shared by them specifically. Sadly, I see many Jews engaing in what is tantamount to a 'civl way' by being intolerant toward each other. It upsets me completely when this happens, as we should be united in spirit even if we cannot be in thought.
Having an abortion is not just a choice about my body. It is a choice about my unborn child. That's the difference!
You may be calling something a child before the label attaches as a matter of law. Check the cases please.
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