The Meaning and Definition of the Ten Commandments
I am going to play devil's advocate for a moment on my own blog. Part of this discussion comes from an interesting discussion I am having with rockofgallie on his blog: http://rockofgalilee.blogspot.com/. He raises some fascinating and provocative questions, by the way.
What if the Ten Commandments, instead of being religous in nature, were interpreted as a code for good moral conduct? Why could this be or not be so? Are these Commandments, by definition religious in nature, and if so, what is the source? If they were interpreted as moral codes, could there be an argument for them not violating the First Amendment? Why could this be or not be so?
Thank you for your minds.
What if the Ten Commandments, instead of being religous in nature, were interpreted as a code for good moral conduct? Why could this be or not be so? Are these Commandments, by definition religious in nature, and if so, what is the source? If they were interpreted as moral codes, could there be an argument for them not violating the First Amendment? Why could this be or not be so?
Thank you for your minds.
29 Comments:
Well, first, I have to point out that one of the commandments--the one about not coveting what your neighbor's got--violates the entire basis of the US (and much of the world) economy. So that's right out.
The best criticism of the 10 commandments as a moral code comes from that great Talmudic scholar, George Carlin. Google CARLIN "TEN COMMANDMENTS" and find out why. ;)
I agree that they are basically good rules to follow. However, they are listed as Commandments from a deity that demands that you worship only him and to set aside a day to worship him. That's what makes it objectionable to me and others that are not of the Judaeo-Christian faiths.
Interesting question. I don't know enough about the ten commandments to answer with any authority. But aren't they interpreted as the word of God? So I would say that they are religious by definition.
DO YOU NEED RELIGION TO TELL YOU NOT TO KILL?
DO YOU NEED IT TO TELL YOU NOT TO TAKE ANOTHERS PROPOERTY?
SAME FOR MOTHER FATHER ETC.
THE ANSWER IS PRETTY OBVIOUS.
The first commandment is that there is one god. Right there you have problems with Hindus, atheists, Buddhists...
Other then that, one of the main points of the 10 commandments, as Kvetcher may be trying to say, (and if he's not then just I am saying it) is that even though they may make sense, they are only valid because we are commanded to do them by God. You might think that honoring your parents is a good idea. But the entire basis for that is a commandment by God that you do not have a choice. It is not a decision that you have to make. It is a commandment.
I think the 10 commandments were written to try to keep the ignorant townfolk in line, kinda like the way your parents would say the boogeyman would come and get you if you weren't good...
The 10 commandments are a code of conduct. The entire bible is a code of conduct written by and for a people who lived thousands of years ago, thousands of miles east. They chose to claim that their code was divinely inspired. Fine. The point is that the commandments represent the code of conduct embraced by a different society of people living at a different time, in a different place, with different needs and challenges. Whether we want to share part or all of their code of conduct is up to us, and should be determined by our own needs and circumstances.
If the goal is to maintain a relatively peaceful and cooperative collective, "don't kill" and "don't covet" are darn good rules to incorporate into an emerging society's code of conduct. Just because the people who wrote the various books of the bible claimed the commandments came from some divine source doesn't make them inherently religious. They're bluntly practical. But other commandments are totally impractical with our current values. For instance, imagine how the second and third commandments would conflict with our first amendment, which deals with freedom of expression:
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."
"Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."
U.S. law does NOT embrace all 10 commandments, just a few. Thus, posting the 10 commandments on a courthouse wall seems out of line and obviously religious. Moreover, it seems rather absurd to post a completely different society's code of conduct (even if some of their descendants do live here). Most of us could use a primer on our OWN code of conduct.
The way I understand the Ten Commandments, is that not only are you commanded to do them by God, but, by their very nature, if you believe the Bible, they are derived from God as well, and given by God at Sinai.
Here is the reason I ask this question.
If those of you conclude that the Ten Commandments are in fact a moral code, with how to live one's life, without any devine meaning, an argument could be made that their display on public property does not violate the separation of church from state doctine, i.e. the First Amendment.
But I think most of us do see these Commandments as religious in nature or origin, with perhaps moral rules, which is why an argument can be made that their display on state property is in fact unconstitutional.
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And just practically, for a second, think about it: You're a Hindu. You have been charged with a crime. You enter the courtroom. You see a framed document on the wall. It begins:
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. "
Do you feel like you are about to get a fair trial by a judiciary that does not promote one religion above others? The sign says, after all, that mercy only goes to those who love God and keep His commandments. Nope! Guess you're screwed.
The first four of the Ten Commandments establish a single God and His divinity and how He wishes to be worshipped, therefore I don't believe that they can be interpreted as anything other than religious in nature and therefore would violate the First Ammendment.
The fifth, Honor thy father and mother, is rather silly in my book. Some parents simply don't deserve to be honored. Those who do deserve honor will earn such treatment through their actions. There doesn't need to be a directive on this one, religious or legal.
The remaining Commandments all fall into the social no-brainer category.
Thou shalt not kill. A good rule of thumb if you are a social animal living in groups of your own kind. This rule however is not unique to Judeo-Christian societies.
Thou shalt not commit adultery. Again, another good rule in a society which is structured like ours. We have laws dealing with this issue when it becomes a problem and marriages break up.
Thou shalt not steal. Same deal as Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not bear false witness. Same deal as kill and steal.
Sorry, accidently hit the publish button.
Anyway, the social morals parts of the ten commandments are already part of the laws of the land. The religious ones are only relevant to those who choose to follow them and therefore cannot be forced upon the rest of a society when the First Ammendment is in place.
tania & godless mom:
You have inspired a new question in me (By the way, I have changed the question in my profile to read, every answer creates a new question...As you can see, I love questions.)
Godless mom's point is well made as to the meaning of the Ten Commandments, although their source and whether they are commanded by God is to me, on a personal level, a real issue.
But let us say, that the last 5 Commandments were posted on public property, on a court room door, would you think this to be religous in nature and a violation of the First Amendment?
Ha ha ha, that is a fun question! I wouldn't have any problem with Thou shalt not kill, steal, etc. on a courtroom door, it would be merely another way of stating laws that already exist. They should probably throw in, Thou shalt not drive in excess of 65 mph on the freeway and Thou shalt not cross the street in the middle of the block for good measure though!
My problem with the Ten Commandments being displayed in their entirety is that when the first four commandments are part of the display it is definitely religious in nature. Take out all the stuff about God and it becomes merely a list of good ideas for a society to follow, ideas that are already on the books. So what's the point?
It is important to me to stress though that the above mentioned good ideas are not unique to Judeo-Christian cultures. Humanity the world over follows similar rules whenever they live together in groups.
The Ten Commandments aren't, lulei demistafina, the only commandments. There are actually 613 commandments.
In Hebrew they are known as the Ten "Dibros" or Proclamations.
However, the real code of conduct in the Torah is not the Ten Commandments but the Seven Noahide Laws, given to all mankind as opposed to just the Jews.
Also, another lesser known fact, the command not to steal is actually a prohibition against kidnapping.
Oh, good point, tania! The coveting thing is central to consumer society.
Well, the 10 commandments are in the Hebrew Scriptures/Torah/Old Testament. That's a religious text. So... I don't think it has any place in a government facility.
How many Children of Abraham* (COA) can list the Ten Commandments off the top of their heads? If they are commandments, shouldn't the followers of these religions know them by heart? We know that nothing will happen if they aren't followed precisely. No bolt of lightening comes from the sky nor does Earth open up and swallow the transgressor if s/he is cheating on their spouse or killing an enemy. Sure, some of them are fab guidlines, but some are not. I'm a big fan of the "Thou shall not kill" one, believe in it wholeheartedly and sprout it to any COA who tells me they support war.
I don't follow a single deity spiritulity so each time I've seen some biblical reference in a public place (or at a public event where a blessing was invoked), used money, etc. I'm offended and reminded that my belief system is not represented. However, there isn't enough space/time to include *all* spiritualities/religions. Therefore, if not belief system can be included then none should.
*A Jew, Christian, or Muslin
Again, if religous commandments are to be posted in court rooms, why not post secular laws in churches?
How would the Christians that are pushing this issue so hard feel about their church taking the crosses down, wallpapering the entire alter area with Local, State, and Federal laws, then hanging the crosses back up? Would that violate the seperation of church and state? And if so - why? Does not the arguement that the commandments are the basis of ALL LAW in the USA work in reverse (that is, all laws in the USA result from the commandments).
I still say that if a private citizen, or group of citizens, want to put up the money for a monument that is fine. As long as EVERY private funded monument has an equal chance of display on public land. And of course, you can put up whatever you want on private land - providing it conforms to zoning laws.
But posting "thou shalt labor for 6 days and rest on the 7th" in courtrooms? What does this have to do with anything?
My union says I only have to work for 5 days, and then only for 40 hours. Any more than that and I get overtime pay. I get to rest for 2 days.
LazyIguana,
As you can see from the variety of posts, and the comment by Aral as well, the Ten Commandments originated as a Jewish not a Christian issue. The way I understand them is that they were delivered from God at Sinai, and the commandments themselves are God given and driven in nature. That being said, they do qualify as a religious matter, but not necessarily a Christian matter. This is only fair.
I realize that where the commandments came from.
But which group is trying to get them posted everywhere? Which side is trying to make scripture political? Which side is trying to turn the words of God into political propaganda?
So far, I have not heard a single Rabbi doing any of that. It is the christian right wing that is trying to make the bible, and indirectly the books of the torah, political.
So while the commandments are not a christian issue (they belong to two religions), it is only the christian side trying to make them political. And I think that there should have been an 11th commandment against that.
Christianity is based on Judaism. It was the original reform movement.
That is why they call the Torah, the Old Testament. They believe they got something more updated, but they still believe we got the Torah on Mt Sinai.
The Muslims believe that Mohammad is the last prophet after all the Jewish prophets. They also believe that we got the Torah on Mt Sinai.
I'm not sure how the Hindus relate to us.
I'm back from Asia!!!
I think the word Commandments will always turn people off. If you take the basic laws they represent, minus those directly concerning God, then most wouldn't have a problem with them.
they have been up there for 225 years it is those who wish to remove them that are making the change. I am a secularist, a jewish secularist but a conserative one which I guess makes me an odd egg.
I don't see the need for there removal.
The 'sheva mitvot of Noach' would make more sence than the 10 commandments but they are of a similiar nature.
Lazy Iguana,
You are absolutely correct as far as their display in public places.
Rock: Christianity as the original reform movement. You may have given me my new topic for the day. My blog is going into a very interesting direction, I can see.
The first thing to understand about the Aseret Dibrot, the Decalogue, is Who is speaking: "I am HaShem your G-d, who brought you forth from bondage in Egypt..." The addressee is commanded to know this, nobody else. Who is the "you" addressed? Only Jews; non-Jews are obliged to obey only the seven commandments of the Noachide Covenant, whose sign is the rainbow. True, Christianity, when it was trying to abrogate most of the 613 commandments the Torah addresses to Jews, came to identify the Ten with the minimum morality written on the human heart, and later Christian theologians understood it as a basic code of natural law. For people to take the Ten as a little law code addressed to humanity in general is then to accept putting them into, and reading them from, a Christian narrative. They must also choose a parsing of them (Catholics and Lutherans follow Augustine's, which differs from the standard Evangelical parsing.) Any way you look at it, using the Ten this way can only advance a sectarian agenda -- and as it happens in the here and now, advances a reactionary political agenda.
--DABODIUS
Annoy.
You raise a fasinating point and I want to see if I understand it completely.
What you saying is that the Ten Commandments are applied differently from a Jew's to a non-Jew's perspective? If I further understand, the point is that non-Jews only have to follows 7 Commandments. Which 7 are these?
Further, from what I gather, the way in which the Christan right are using the Ten Commandments is for sectarian purposes, and not commandments from G-d?
Could you elaborate please on what the Noachide Covenant, the sign of the rainbow is please?
These facts are most fasinating that you have brought forward for discussion.
"Annoy?" I did say we need to know who is being addressed, but a little reserve about how you feel about him might be in order ;).
The Torah addresses the Ten Commandments to Israel, not to the nations. Chazal, the rabbinic sages, counted 603 more commandments in the Torah addressed only to Jews. But all human beings in the world today, according to the Torah, are "Noachides," descended from Noah and his wife (Naamah, as tradition, but not the Torah names her), whose offpsring and their wives repopulated the world after the Mabul (Deluge or Flood). In
Genesis Chapter 9
G-d makes a covenant with humanity:
'As for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you, and with your seed after you; and with every living creature that is with you, the fowl, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that go out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. And I will establish My covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of the flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.' And G-d said: 'This is the token of the covenant which I make between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I have set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between Me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring clouds over the earth, and the bow is seen in the cloud, that I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between G-d and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.' And G-d said unto Noah: 'This is the token of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is upon the earth.' (vv9-17)
Chazal (mainly in the Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin Sanh. 56Aff) teased out seven commandments from this and preceding chapters in Genesis. Obedience to these seven are the human obligations of the covenant. Different rabbis had different candidates for the seven, but the accepted list is six Don'ts and one Do: idolatry, blasphemy, bloodshed, theft, sexual immorality (here understood as adultery and incest), and cruelty to animals are forbidden, and human beings are positively commanded to establish courts of justice. (There is a fuller, better account at
JewishEncyclopedia.Com
.)
Whatever salvation is, Chazal taught, non-Jews attain theirs by obeying these Noachide Commandments. Now if Christians try to obey the Ten Commandments as they understand them, they will tend to fulfill their obligations as Noachides (as will Buddhists following the Eightfold Path, Muslims supported by the Five Pillars of Islam, etc.). So Judaism does not fault Christians for trying to live by the Ten, though it differs from the way Christians understand them (and don't for the most part understand the Noachide Covenat that at their best they are fulfilling.) Judaism does deny that the Ten are sufficient for Jews to fulfill our obligations; the Ten, again, are Ten of 613; without the Temple and outide the Land Of Israel, about a hundred, including the Ten, are now binding. But for Jews and non-Jews alike, the Ten are not "the basics of morality," just a sample of the 613 from Sinai for Jews, and for some non-Jews possibly a means to fulfill the terms of the Noachide Covenant without knowing it. (Moses Maimonides said Noachides had to know what they were doing to fulfill their covenental obligation, Moses Mendelssohn said that had no basis in Chazal -- but that's another story).
Still less are the Ten a legal code by themselves or, as I heard a right-winger call them last month, "the foundation of our jurisprudence." I have tried to tell the story of the classical and Christian identifications (or confusions) that might lead someone to think so
HERE .
But those identifications are questionable and cannot be made without committing yourself to Christian tradition. Whether you understand that tradition and are committed to it, or whether, like the right-winger I quoted, you probably don't understand but want other people to commit to Evangelical Christianity, trying to persuade our society that we or our law are founded on the Ten Commandments is just a way of imposing that kind of Christianity on the rest of us.
--DABODIUS
Gut Shabbos and Happy Fourth, everybody!
Dabodios,
This is good Shabbos reading. I will print it out.
And thank you for taking the time and trouble to present me with such informative information.
Good Shabbos.
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